Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:13 PM
notofworks's Avatar
notofworks notofworks is offline
Ravaged by Grace


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,948
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
Possibly one of the Universalists shades... but probably more like many humans who ponder these deep and reflective things.

We don't have to "put Ghandi in hell" to proclaim Jesus as the only Way. Honestly, though I think there's much damage Universalism does to watering down the consistency of God's Story and his Rescue through Christ, I don't believe it's a Gospel issue, or a heresy that is damnable. Rob Bell, if indeed a Universalist (read that link I posted because I don't think that's the case), is still pointing people to the Cross, to Jesus for salvation and is declaring Him as their "way out." How one views our final states, to me, is not absolute necessity. Though, I'd definitely contend that the idea is false, heresy and not the complete picture of God's character.

IOW, you're still my brother... and the fact is, I have those same ponderings and questions sometimes

I read the article until he said he hadn't read the whole book, and I dropped it there, thinking, "And you're writing all this about him without knowing everything?" That gripes me. It's like all the stuff all over the internet about Bill Hybels apologizing for the entire philosophy he's operated by. I mean, it's all over the place as absolute fact, and he absolutely never did it!! Never! I don't understand these guys that want to write hit pieces with all, and sometimes without any, of the information.

But Social, I'll admit to fiercely struggling with some of these things. Did God really design a system whereby nearly all of the humanity he created would be doomed to burn in torment endlessly? I have a hard time with that. I mean, He's God and He can do what He wants because He's God, but that's really tough for me. And I don't buy explanations that Dave posted..."Just think how hard it is for God."

And it gets even worse if you use the 3-step, Steve Epley, OldPaths formula. Now we're talking about only, maybe, a few hundred thousand in all history!!!

I struggle with Crakjak's view, I struggle with NotForSale's view, who says there is no hell, and I struggle with the Orthodox view. I guess I just struggle!

I follow Jesus, trust in Him and his saving grace, and believe that God will handle eternity with justice and grace.
__________________
You know you miss me
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by notofworks View Post
Then evidently, I don't understand the "Light Doctrine", which is entirely possible because I'd never heard of it until a few months ago...I'm not well-informed with that stuff.
By “Light Doctrine” I meant the teahing that some who have not experienced the three steps of Acts 2:38 will have eternal life either in Heaven or on the New Earth if they lived up to all the light they had.

1. My pastor from 1957 to 1963/64 was Frank Curts. He was Dist. Supt. of the Ohio UPC. He taught that in order to get into the Bride of Christ a person had to repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. He taught that nobody would be in the rapture who did not complete those three steps. He taught that the rapture was before the tribulation and was part of the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6. Others who were part of the first resurrection were the martyrs during the tribulation period (Rev 7:9-17). He taught that the second resurrection (Rev. 20:11-15 and Matthew 25:31-46) was after the millennium and all who were not in the first resurrection were included. Those judged were divided into two groups, sheep and goats. The goats went to the lake of fire and the sheep went to Heaven. The sheep were called "righteous" because of the lives they lived but were not called "holy" because they had not been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized in the Holy Spirit. He taught that all who walked in all the light they had would go to Heaven and that their righteous deeds were evidence that they were sincerely serving God.

2. Bishop Haywood taught pretty much the same except he taught that the righteous went to the new earth. Here is an excerpt from his book on The Resurrection:

FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION
That there is a first and second resurrection of the dead the
scriptures plainly declare. But who shall be partakers thereof,
especially the first resurrection, is a thing that has not been
clearly explained.

We have generally understood the first resurrection to be those
who are saved, and the second resurrection to be composed of the
wicked, or unsaved. Then again there is a teaching that there is but
one literal resurrection of the dead and at that time Jesus will sit
on the throne of His glory and separate the "righteous from the
wicked" as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." This though
is derived from Matt. 25:31, 32.

Revelation 20:4-6, says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in
the first resurrection," and "the rest of the dead live not again
until the thousand years were finished." And these words are true and
faithful. Rev. 19:9;22:6. According to the foregoing passages there is
a thousand years between the first and second resurrections.

This being true, who then are the "righteous that are separated from
the wicked as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats?"

Difference Between the Righteous and Holy.
If we will notice Rev. 20:6 we will see that they who take part
in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy." We only have to look
closely into the Word of God to find that there is difference between
the righteous and the holy. He that is righteous, let him be righteous
still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still - Rev. 22:11.

In Hebrew the word "holy" is "kodesh" which means a sacred place, or
thing, consecrated (thing); dedicated (thing) holiness, a saint, asanctuary; while the word righteous is "tsaddeek," which means just,
lawful, righteous (man) or to make right in a moral sense, to clear
one's self, to justify self. From this we can see that righteousness
is moral actions, while holiness is a consecrated state.

Holy people are those whose lives are consecrated to God by the
Holy Spirit's indwelling. The prophets were called "holy" because of
the Holy Ghost that is upon them and in them. - 2 Pet. 1:21; Eph. 3:5.
Holiness can only be claimed by those who are filled with the Holy
spirit. Prophets,: priests, kings and special chosen people before
Christ were called "holy" but the others who walked in obedience to
the law were called righteous men. - Matt. 13:17. It was Moses who
said about 1490 years before Christ, "Would God that all of the Lord's
people were prophets, and that the Lord could put His (holy) Spirit
upon them." Num. 11:29. In Joel 2:28, we find God promising to fulfill
Moses' desires. If they were all to; be prophets (Rev. 19:10) and
filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:16, 17,) that it could be seen
that in the new dispensation (of grace) God's people were not only be
righteous, but holy also. - (Isa. 62:12; Luke 1:74, 75.)

From the above mentioned scriptures it can be clearly seen that
there is a difference between the holy and the righteous. Holiness is
found in the Holy Spirit-filled life. - (See 1 Thess. 4:7,8). There
are many who are called holy who are only righteous, because they have
not been partakers of the Holy Ghost. There is a true holiness. (Eph.
4:24) It is the Holy Spirit-filled people who shall take part in the
first resurrection. The "blessed" are those who "die in the Lord"
during the tribulation period and are "called to the marriage supper
of the lamb." - Rev. 14:13; 19:9; 20:6...

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.
After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.

In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.

Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.
If we desire to take part in the first resurrection we must be
filled with the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. It
is the church of the First-born that takes part in the first
resurrection. To enter into that Church, which is his body, we must be
baptized into it by both water and the Spirit. (See John 3:5; Rom.
6:3-5; 1 Cor. 12:12, 13; Gal. 3:26-28.


3. Bro. S.G. Norris taught what is some times called "holy, righteous, and wicked." The "holy" are those who have obeyed Acts 2:38 since Pentecost; plus the Old Testament prophets who had the Holy Spirit in their lives; plus the children of at least one parent who had obeyed Acts 2:38 according to 1 Corinthians 7:14; plus those who were martyred in the tribulation. These were all in the first resurrection. Then, at the second resurrection, all who had walked in all the light they had received eternal life at the Great White Throne judgment (second resurrection) and went into the new earth.


4. A while back I read a book titled "Prophetic Research, The Study of Eschatology" by Clyde Haney. Actually Than Haney (Clyde's grandson and Ken's son) published the book from Clyde Haney's notes. On pages 53 and 54 in his comments on The Great White Throne Judgment of Rev. 20:11-14
“The dead, small and great’ --while there are no born again folks raised here, yet we doubt that all all who are raised are cast into hell. Here is the answer to the question asked by many, “What will God do about those who did not have the gospel, but walked in all the light they had?”...some who come up for judgment here will not be cast into the lake of fire....It is evident that these resurrection Scriptures refer not to the Rapture, but the final resurrection; also that the two orders, just and unjust, come up when all in the graves are summoned. Thus the White Throne Judgment will be a great event covering a longer period of time than generally realized. But while the just will be judged, the church, the Holy Order, will not be judged there. The Bible teaches three orders -- the just, the righteous, and the holy. The Bride is the Holy Order. Then cometh the end....
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis

Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Socialite Socialite is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

NOW, I posted 2 links, one from a man that actually read the book. That's the links I was referring to.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:20 PM
notofworks's Avatar
notofworks notofworks is offline
Ravaged by Grace


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,948
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
NOW, I posted 2 links, one from a man that actually read the book. That's the links I was referring to.

Oh sorry, I didn't see that one. So I went on that diatribe for nothing?
__________________
You know you miss me
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:32 PM
Apprehended's Avatar
Apprehended Apprehended is offline
DOING THE FIRST WORKS


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,069
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Sam...

Could anything get any more complicated than what some of those guys, especially Curts and Norris made it?

I had quite a run in with Norris at a Bible Conference over his doctrine. Interesting story.
__________________
Staying Busy REPENTING and DOING THE FIRST WORKS
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:36 PM
Socialite Socialite is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apprehended View Post
Sam...

Could anything get any more complicated than what some of those guys, especially Curts and Norris made it?

I had quite a run in with Norris at a Bible Conference over his doctrine. Interesting story.
Would love to hear about it!
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:39 PM
notofworks's Avatar
notofworks notofworks is offline
Ravaged by Grace


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,948
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
By “Light Doctrine” I meant the teahing that some who have not experienced the three steps of Acts 2:38 will have eternal life either in Heaven or on the New Earth if they lived up to all the light they had.

1. My pastor from 1957 to 1963/64 was Frank Curts. He was Dist. Supt. of the Ohio UPC. He taught that in order to get into the Bride of Christ a person had to repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. He taught that nobody would be in the rapture who did not complete those three steps. He taught that the rapture was before the tribulation and was part of the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6. Others who were part of the first resurrection were the martyrs during the tribulation period (Rev 7:9-17). He taught that the second resurrection (Rev. 20:11-15 and Matthew 25:31-46) was after the millennium and all who were not in the first resurrection were included. Those judged were divided into two groups, sheep and goats. The goats went to the lake of fire and the sheep went to Heaven. The sheep were called "righteous" because of the lives they lived but were not called "holy" because they had not been baptized in Jesus' name and baptized in the Holy Spirit. He taught that all who walked in all the light they had would go to Heaven and that their righteous deeds were evidence that they were sincerely serving God.

2. Bishop Haywood taught pretty much the same except he taught that the righteous went to the new earth. Here is an excerpt from his book on The Resurrection:

FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION
That there is a first and second resurrection of the dead the
scriptures plainly declare. But who shall be partakers thereof,
especially the first resurrection, is a thing that has not been
clearly explained.

We have generally understood the first resurrection to be those
who are saved, and the second resurrection to be composed of the
wicked, or unsaved. Then again there is a teaching that there is but
one literal resurrection of the dead and at that time Jesus will sit
on the throne of His glory and separate the "righteous from the
wicked" as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." This though
is derived from Matt. 25:31, 32.

Revelation 20:4-6, says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in
the first resurrection," and "the rest of the dead live not again
until the thousand years were finished." And these words are true and
faithful. Rev. 19:9;22:6. According to the foregoing passages there is
a thousand years between the first and second resurrections.

This being true, who then are the "righteous that are separated from
the wicked as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats?"

Difference Between the Righteous and Holy.
If we will notice Rev. 20:6 we will see that they who take part
in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy." We only have to look
closely into the Word of God to find that there is difference between
the righteous and the holy. He that is righteous, let him be righteous
still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still - Rev. 22:11.

In Hebrew the word "holy" is "kodesh" which means a sacred place, or
thing, consecrated (thing); dedicated (thing) holiness, a saint, asanctuary; while the word righteous is "tsaddeek," which means just,
lawful, righteous (man) or to make right in a moral sense, to clear
one's self, to justify self. From this we can see that righteousness
is moral actions, while holiness is a consecrated state.

Holy people are those whose lives are consecrated to God by the
Holy Spirit's indwelling. The prophets were called "holy" because of
the Holy Ghost that is upon them and in them. - 2 Pet. 1:21; Eph. 3:5.
Holiness can only be claimed by those who are filled with the Holy
spirit. Prophets,: priests, kings and special chosen people before
Christ were called "holy" but the others who walked in obedience to
the law were called righteous men. - Matt. 13:17. It was Moses who
said about 1490 years before Christ, "Would God that all of the Lord's
people were prophets, and that the Lord could put His (holy) Spirit
upon them." Num. 11:29. In Joel 2:28, we find God promising to fulfill
Moses' desires. If they were all to; be prophets (Rev. 19:10) and
filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:16, 17,) that it could be seen
that in the new dispensation (of grace) God's people were not only be
righteous, but holy also. - (Isa. 62:12; Luke 1:74, 75.)

From the above mentioned scriptures it can be clearly seen that
there is a difference between the holy and the righteous. Holiness is
found in the Holy Spirit-filled life. - (See 1 Thess. 4:7,8). There
are many who are called holy who are only righteous, because they have
not been partakers of the Holy Ghost. There is a true holiness. (Eph.
4:24) It is the Holy Spirit-filled people who shall take part in the
first resurrection. The "blessed" are those who "die in the Lord"
during the tribulation period and are "called to the marriage supper
of the lamb." - Rev. 14:13; 19:9; 20:6...

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.
After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.

In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.

Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.
If we desire to take part in the first resurrection we must be
filled with the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. It
is the church of the First-born that takes part in the first
resurrection. To enter into that Church, which is his body, we must be
baptized into it by both water and the Spirit. (See John 3:5; Rom.
6:3-5; 1 Cor. 12:12, 13; Gal. 3:26-28.


3. Bro. S.G. Norris taught what is some times called "holy, righteous, and wicked." The "holy" are those who have obeyed Acts 2:38 since Pentecost; plus the Old Testament prophets who had the Holy Spirit in their lives; plus the children of at least one parent who had obeyed Acts 2:38 according to 1 Corinthians 7:14; plus those who were martyred in the tribulation. These were all in the first resurrection. Then, at the second resurrection, all who had walked in all the light they had received eternal life at the Great White Throne judgment (second resurrection) and went into the new earth.


4. A while back I read a book titled "Prophetic Research, The Study of Eschatology" by Clyde Haney. Actually Than Haney (Clyde's grandson and Ken's son) published the book from Clyde Haney's notes. On pages 53 and 54 in his comments on The Great White Throne Judgment of Rev. 20:11-14
“The dead, small and great’ --while there are no born again folks raised here, yet we doubt that all all who are raised are cast into hell. Here is the answer to the question asked by many, “What will God do about those who did not have the gospel, but walked in all the light they had?”...some who come up for judgment here will not be cast into the lake of fire....It is evident that these resurrection Scriptures refer not to the Rapture, but the final resurrection; also that the two orders, just and unjust, come up when all in the graves are summoned. Thus the White Throne Judgment will be a great event covering a longer period of time than generally realized. But while the just will be judged, the church, the Holy Order, will not be judged there. The Bible teaches three orders -- the just, the righteous, and the holy. The Bride is the Holy Order. Then cometh the end....



Goodness. That's enough to make your head spin. Funny though....it seems like I was raised with a little bit of all of it, which I suspect, was a lot of ABI influence...speaking of which, I heard that in his later years, he taught the tribulation was 14 years long. Did you ever hear that? I was told that by one of his students at the time.
__________________
You know you miss me
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Apprehended's Avatar
Apprehended Apprehended is offline
DOING THE FIRST WORKS


 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,069
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

S.G. Norris was teaching at the Bogalusa, La. Bible Conference about 1965, as I recall. In his discourse on his understanding of the light doctrine, he believed that his Presbyterian Aunt who had raised him would be saved since she was a godly woman, prayed much, etc., etc.... He explained that she never heard the Acts 2:38 message. He felt sure had she heard it, she would have obeyed it. Thought she had long since been dead at the time, he felt sure he would see her in heaven.

I raised my hand. He ignored me. I kept my hand raised. There were a house full of preachers there including the entire La. Dist. Board and Supt. C.G. Weeks and my pastor G.A. Mangun, none of whom believed Norris' doctrine. I was surprised that none of them spoke up.

Since he did not recognize my hand, I stood up with a still raised hand. He could not ignore this young, crew cut, wet behind the ears, fool-hardy enough to question his eminence, the venerable S.G. Norris.

"YEAH, WHADAYAWANT," he growled looking at me with eyes blazing with disdain.

"Brother Norris, in view of what you just said concerning your aunt, would you please explain the scripture, "If our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are LOST?"

He looked at me with fury and swelled up like a toad. He slowly walked down to where I was still standing. He grabbed me by the left arm and I could feel his finger nails digging into my flesh. He then pulled me out from where I was standing, and leading me up one aisle and down the other asking me periodically, "WELL WHADAYALOOKIN'FOR????? He repeatedly asked me as he looked from left to right. "TELL ME WHEN YOU SEE IT..."

Finally, when I said, "I have no idea what WE are looking for," he took me back to where I was standing, pushed me into the pew and said, "THAT'SWHATI'MTALKINGBOUT." If you don't have any idea what you are looking for, how is it that you are going to find it."

I stood back up to ask him again how he would explain, "If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." The wife whispered, "It might be better to just let him off the hook."

I did. I sat back down. But, I have that incident on an old reel to reel tape recording.
__________________
Staying Busy REPENTING and DOING THE FIRST WORKS
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-27-2011, 09:58 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by notofworks View Post





Goodness. That's enough to make your head spin. Funny though....it seems like I was raised with a little bit of all of it, which I suspect, was a lot of ABI influence...speaking of which, I heard that in his later years, he taught the tribulation was 14 years long. Did you ever hear that? I was told that by one of his students at the time.
someone else on here mentioned the 14 year tribulation. I don't remember what Bro. Norris taught about it except he taught that Daniel's 70th week (7 years) happened during the tribulation. I don't remember if he taught that there was some time between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week or not.

I was at ABI for just one year --1956/1957.
That's a long time ago.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis

Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-27-2011, 10:07 PM
notofworks's Avatar
notofworks notofworks is offline
Ravaged by Grace


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,948
Re: The Slippery Emergent Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
someone else on here mentioned the 14 year tribulation. I don't remember what Bro. Norris taught about it except he taught that Daniel's 70th week (7 years) happened during the tribulation. I don't remember if he taught that there was some time between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week or not.

I was at ABI for just one year --1956/1957.
That's a long time ago.


I admire all these fellows who have dug into eschatology in measures that I will never be able to relate to, but I find it hard to be interested when:

1) There are about 5 million different teachings on it all with hardly anyone agreeing on any of it with everyone having miles of credentials behind their names, and;

2) When 80% of Christianity still doesn't understand the Sermon on the Mount, and;

3) When even fewer have ever leveraged the influence of their faith and changed the life of another with the gospel.
__________________
You know you miss me
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Emergent Church Romans 14:22 Fellowship Hall 141 06-15-2010 08:41 AM
Shaw on Emergent Church Hoovie Fellowship Hall 10 07-15-2009 04:22 PM
What is an emergent church? Bro-Larry Fellowship Hall 25 01-19-2009 06:15 PM
Is This the Slippery Slope? TRIPLE E Fellowship Hall 17 10-12-2007 04:51 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.