The Thief on the Cross

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Interesting.

An honest question: Are you a Calvinist?

I am not answering for the blue deacon but since I agree with his post you are referring to I can say that in my case the answer is no.

You don't have to believe "once saved always saved" to believe the statement deacon made about our salvation being for both past and future sins.

The key is willful sin vs sins we do when we stumble while trying to not sin due to our human nature. I believe if one willfully continues to sin because they think Gods grace will cover them they are not following Jesus and at some point will not be in fellowship with him. I would not be one to judge when a persons salvation is lost and I think it is a lot different than what most old time Pentecostals think but I do think there is a point where one has turned their back on God and rejected salvation.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

When we are saved we become children of God. The consequences for sin thereafter are vastly different than for those who are the children of darkness. The Lord chastens those He loves, but salvation given is not just for my past but also for my present and future.

I'm forgiven of the sins of my future as well as my past. Salvation is a gift, unmerited and undeserved. My relationship with Jesus is not a tightrope walk. I am in covenant with Him. I need not live in fear and dread because of my "body of death". We groan within ourselves because our bodies are the last portion of us to be redeemed. The adoption will take place when Jesus returns.

Those of you trying to "earn your salvation" can continue living under the law if you choose, but there's only one result of that kind of relationship with God. Grace sets you free. Grace releases you to live for Jesus based on relationship rather than performance. Grace is truly lifechanging, empowering and liberating. I pity those of you who embrace legalism over liberty. I truly feel sorry for you.

Originally Posted by CC1

I am not answering for the blue deacon but since I agree with his post you are referring to I can say that in my case the answer is no.

You don't have to believe "once saved always saved" to believe the statement deacon made about our salvation being for both past and future sins.

The key is willful sin vs sins we do when we stumble while trying to not sin due to our human nature. I believe if one willfully continues to sin because they think Gods grace will cover them they are not following Jesus and at some point will not be in fellowship with him. I would not be one to judge when a persons salvation is lost and I think it is a lot different than what most old time Pentecostals think but I do think there is a point where one has turned their back on God and rejected salvation.

Thank you for your response.

It is not so much one individual statement as the tone of the post that prompted my question.

On the surface your post differs quite dramatically from Bro. Deacon Blues' post: your post makes future salvation conditional on future faith; Bro. Deacon's post makes unconditional statements predicating future salvation on past faith.

He also said, "The consequences for sin thereafter are vastly different than for those who are the children of darkness." He goes on to say that the penalty for sinning children is chastening (as opposed to lost salvation is assumed); this is the kind of statement that is usually made by someone who believes that salvation cannot be lost.

If my future sins were forgiven in the past, then I cannot be lost in spite of my future failings, willful or otherwise.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by jfrog

According to you the new birth is not an event but here you say "after being born again" which implies that the event of the new birth happened at some time in the past. So can you please get your story straight?

Jfrog are you reading all of my posts? I explained what I meant by being born again is not just an event and yet I have to reexplain myself?

The WORK of being born again continues. IT has to start somewhere. (which I believe it starts at repentance) I don't believe once you receive the Holy Ghost you have to continue being born again by doing good works or something else, but you have to continue to allow the Spirit to change your ways which is what being born again is all about.


The scripture says He that is born of God sinneth not.. it doesn't say he that HAS been born of God sinneth not. That indicate a present work, not a past work.

Do you understand my point now???

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

Yes, yes! I'm glad you see.

Acts 2:38 is what gives people the opportunity to have a "clean-slate."
After the baptism, every sin you've committed in your past will not be counted against you.
However, after that, if you sin ( whether purposefully or if you struggle ), your future sins will be accounted for.

So, we are on the same page now.

I'm with you until the part of doing more good works than bad to keep salvation. I don't find that anywhere. I can't do enough good works to compensate for the times I've fallen after getting into the church. I guess that means I have no hope? Sorry I don't find that.

What I do find is

If ye sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us.

I don't find good works anywhere in those verses but I may be missing something here.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Jfrog are you reading all of my posts? I explained what I meant by being born again is not just an event and yet I have to reexplain myself?

The WORK of being born again continues. IT has to start somewhere. (which I believe it starts at repentance) I don't believe once you receive the Holy Ghost you have to continue being born again by doing good works or something else, but you have to continue to allow the Spirit to change your ways which is what being born again is all about.


The scripture says He that is born of God sinneth not.. it doesn't say he that HAS been born of God sinneth not. That indicate a present work, not a past work.

Do you understand my point now???

When you take away your one phrase about born again not being an event didn't I pretty much say the same thing?

[Walks_in_islam]

Maybe the story should be defined first.

Matt 27 and Mark 15 declare that BOTH thieves mocked and made fun of Jesus.

SO answer this: How can one robber be saved in Luke but both robbers mocked Jesus in Matt and Mark?

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Matt 27:44 The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

Should you define what happened before you argue about what it means?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by jfrog

When you take away your one phrase about born again not being an event didn't I pretty much say the same thing?

I said being born again is not JUST an event. I never stated to my knowledge that it wasn't at all an event.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I said being born again is not JUST an event. I never stated to my knowledge that it wasn't at all an event.

Then I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Maybe the story should be defined first.

Matt 27 and Mark 15 declare that BOTH thieves mocked and made fun of Jesus.

SO answer this: How can one robber be saved in Luke but both robbers mocked Jesus in Matt and Mark?

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Matt 27:44 The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

Should you define what happened before you argue about what it means?

One thief could be saved because even though they both mocked Jesus at first the one thief eventually expressed a small amount of faith.

[Monarchianism]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm with you until the part of doing more good works than bad to keep salvation. I don't find that anywhere. I can't do enough good works to compensate for the times I've fallen after getting into the church. I guess that means I have no hope? Sorry I don't find that.

What I do find is

If ye sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us.

I don't find good works anywhere in those verses but I may be missing something here.

Huh? We are to repent daily, yea? Doesn't the Bible say something about not keeping prayer, that you will be thrown in with the wicked?
( Not in those exact words ) Perhaps it means that you are considered a wicked man. Prayer is an everyday thing. Cannot remember where it talks about it at..

If I sin, I must ask for forgiveness. ( If the sin is huge, it's not a "will you forgive" simple question. If it's huge, you have to basically beg God to forgive you, while you are "rolling in your tears" as a figure of speech. ) I have seen this happen before..