I have a question about the UPC - Page 2

TGBTG · #11 10-08-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Water baptism is a number of things, including an outward sign of an inward work, but the bible never actually says that is what it is for or limits to that.

Prax, about "outward sign of an inward work". What if the person has not genuinely repented and they got baptized? that baptism obviously would not be the sign of an inward work...right?

Praxeas · #12 10-08-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Prax, about "outward sign of an inward work". What if the person has not genuinely repented and they got baptized? that baptism obviously would not be the sign of an inward work...right?

Just because something can be a sign does not mean it causes the work.

Im sure we can find Atheists that are good people too, does not mean they are saved though being good could be a sign of an inward work as well

Amanah · #13 10-08-2011, 05:25 PM

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?

TGBTG · #14 10-08-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?

I know this was to Prax, but I wanna put my input:

I believe we are justified by faith in the blood of Christ at repentance (Rom 3:26). But I don't think a repentant sinner WILL refuse baptism. (So I guess in that way, baptism would be the sinner's way of showing that an inward work has occurred)

It is up to the preacher to tell the sinner that Jesus commands us to be baptized as his disciples. We have to remember that a sinner in most cases does not even know about baptism. So we are to tell them about it. Also, we are to tell them about the Baptism of the HolyGhost.

If a person does not hear about baptism and the baptism of the HolyGhost because of the church they got saved in, it's not the fault of the new convert. It's the fault of the old convert who did not tell them the FULL GOSPEL...

Having said that, I believe that repentance is the crucial part of it all...

Notice what Jesus says here in Mk 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A person is condemned when he/she does NOT believe. A believer would obviously get baptized

If we would study the book of John, we see Jesus emphasizes believing on him a lot:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (NOTICE THAT THEY WILL DIE IN THEIR SINS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST.)

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Praxeas · #15 10-08-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?

I believe that Faith is needed to be saved. Sins are "forgiven" or we receive forgiveness when we repent.

A person with genuine faith will obey the scriptures and be baptized

I believe tongues is the normative experience when being baptized with the Spirit but that does not mean if one has not spoken in tongues yet the have not been baptized yet

The odd thing is, none of the people that had faith in the bible ever EVER questioned Peter or the other Apostles that way...they all obediently were baptized

TGBTG · #16 10-08-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I believe that Faith is needed to be saved. Sins are "forgiven" or we receive forgiveness when we repent.

A person with genuine faith will obey the scriptures and be baptized

I believe tongues is the normative experience when being baptized with the Spirit but that does not mean if one has not spoken in tongues yet the have not been baptized yet

The odd thing is, none of the people that had faith in the bible ever EVER questioned Peter or the other Apostles that way...they all obediently were baptized

Have you ever come across a "believer" who refused baptism?

Sherri · #17 10-08-2011, 06:04 PM

Amanah--there are SOME UPC preachers who believe all of the things you mentioned above, but they won't last long in UPC if they voice those opinions. Usually (like us) they leave, because they don't feel right about staying a part of something that you can't agree with the doctrine and teach it with a clear conscience.

Amanah · #18 10-08-2011, 06:09 PM

You guys have no idea how difficult it is for me to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts.

It's very similar to what I have always believed as an OP, but its different too.

but it seems the subtle difference is faith/works.

which could actually be more then a subtle difference.

TGBTG · #19 10-08-2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

You guys have no idea how difficult it is for me to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts.

It's very similar to what I have always believed as an OP, but its different too.

but it seems the subtle difference is faith/works.

which could actually be more then a subtle difference.

...I would say pray about it, but also what exactly is difficult for ya if I may ask?

freeatlast · #20 10-08-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

that do believe that salvation is a Repentance

that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

that believe you are saved at repentance

and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

One that I occasionally attend would be pretty close to what you describe.
The church like over 50% of all UPCi churches is NON Affiliated.
The pastor still holds a license with the UPC
Here's a web link www.newlifequadcities.com

like Sherry statted there ar many pastors/churches that do not hold to the beliefs of the UPC as stated by the UPC articles of faith and beliefs.

I'm not sure why so many stay with the "mother ship" maybe fear peer pressure, whatever.