Helltruth.com

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This only proves that forever does not always mean what we think of as forever. Ezekiel shows us the devil will be destroyed and be no more.

Forever can be as short as 3 days in the Hebrew.

I taught eternal torment myself for 16 years. When I looked at it with the Biblical foundation that THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH the scriptures began to open up.

The wrath of God is very real. Unfortunately not many believe in it proved by the fact they think they can sin every day and escape it. Those who continue in sin will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire even those who think they are Christians.

Honestly it shows that the bible is right and others are changing the definitions of words. I don't expect to change minds, but I do want people who may be weak concerning hell and for ever to see what the bible really says.

[JamDat]

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This error will NOT shorten Hell 2 seconds nor cool it down. Keep on going and you will join Carlton Pearson.

Originally Posted by houston

They're not even related.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We will see.

So, Steve Epley, you've insinuated Carlton Pearson is already bound for Hell? You may as well throw all of our names on your list as well, whether we have the same ideology as him or not -- several things can send us to Hell, not just ideology.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

Of course He died. When He was in the garden and asked "let this cup pass from me" it wasn't because He was afraid of the cross. Many men had been beat and crucified. Men get crucified even today willingly. Jesus even knew death would come, but that wasn't the cup.

What was in that cup that made Jesus physically in agony and made Him sweat as great drops of blood? What affected Him so much that an angel had to come and strengthen Him while in the garden?

Jesus knowing that it is appointed to every man to die once wasn't afraid of that and of course Jesus wasn't afraid of the judgment that comes after a man dies.

Jesus also knew Isa 53 and what wrath was about to be poured out on Him.

You're punishment is not death of the flesh, but it is a consequence of sin. If you've repented and Jesus has saved you, you still will die in the flesh. So if like you say Jesus bore our punishment which is death then none are saved.

The wrath of God is the punishment for the unrepented. Jesus didn't rescue you from annihilation, but from damnation.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

excellent point I never thought of it that way.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Your two statements are so contradictory!!

If Jesus took the FULL wrath of God, how is it that God is still FULL of wrath toward sinners??? If Jesus paid the price, why are feeble, miserable, broken humans required to pay again???? Does God add insult to injury???

Is that what you would do with a son or daughter that got caught up in drugs and addiction, and died without getting set free????

Your theology makes God out to be a failure as a Creator and a Savior.

[Orthodoxy]

Based on Scripture, I have to say that I lean toward eternal conscious punishment, rather than annihilation. But eternal torment is a terrible thought, and should cause us to tremble in reverence. Here is an excerpt from an article by Randy Alcorn. Read the whole article here.

ANNIHILATION

The Bible teaches Hell is a place of eternal punishment, not annihilation.

Jesus said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). Here in the same sentence, Christ uses the word “eternal” (aionos) to describe the duration of both Heaven and Hell. Thus, according to our Lord, if some will consciously experience Heaven forever, then some must consciously experience Hell forever.

Despite the clarity of Matthew 25:46, even some evangelical Christians have affirmed that upon dying, or at the final judgment, those without Christ will cease to exist. Clark Pinnock writes, “It’s time for evangelicals to come out and say that the biblical and morally appropriate doctrine of Hell is annihilation, not everlasting torment.”[7] Pinnock makes a revealing statement:

I was led to question the traditional belief in everlasting conscious torment because of moral revulsion and broader theological considerations, not first of all on scriptural grounds. It just does not make any sense to say that a God of love will torture people forever for sins done in the context of a finite life.[8]

Note that Pinnock admits he reached his conclusions about annihilation “not first of all on scriptural grounds.” John Stott wrote about eternal conscious torment, “Emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain.... Scripture points in the direction of annihilation.”[9]

But would John Stott, whom I greatly respect and who is an advocate of the inspiration and authority of Scripture, have ever said Scripture points toward annihilation if it were not for the emotional strain put upon him by the passages that clearly appear to teach everlasting punishment?

Revelation 20:10 says not only that Satan, but also the beast and the false prophet, “will be tormented for ever and ever.” Revelation 19:20 shows the beast and false prophet are humans, put in Hell a thousand years earlier. Hence, we at least know that Hell for humans cannot mean immediate annihilation at death.

The most graphic New Testament statement of the eternal suffering of the unrepentant says simply, “The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Revelation 14:11). It’s hard to imagine a more emphatic affirmation of eternal punishment.

If we are going to discard the doctrine of eternal punishment because it feels profoundly unpleasant to us, then it seems fair to ask what other biblical teachings we will also reject, because they too don’t square with what we feel. And if we do this, are we not replacing the authority of Scripture with the authority of our feelings, or our limited understanding?

Annihilation makes no sense in light of Revelation 20.

One popular annihilationist position maintains that unbelievers cease to exist when they die. But if they no longer exist, then how can they be raised to stand at the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20? Would God re-create them to stand before him in judgment? After this judgment, Revelation 20 says they will be cast into the lake of fire. Would this be a second annihilation?

Another view states that unbelievers are destroyed not at death, but sometime later. They suffer some punishment appropriate to their offenses (as the rich man experiences in Luke 16), some shorter and some longer, then are snuffed out of existence.

But as we’ve seen, two human beings, the antichrist and the false prophet, will be thrown into the lake of fire after a thousand years of suffering. If it is wrong for punishment to last forever, wouldn’t it seem wrong to last over a thousand years? If there’s an eventual end to people’s suffering in Hell, where is that indicated in Scripture? Why Christ’s emphasis on “eternal punishment” and fire that isn’t quenched and a worm that doesn’t die?

People believe in annihilation because it doesn’t seem nearly so bad as eternity in Hell. The rich man of Luke 16 does not cease to exist when he dies. But will he one day cease to exist? If so, when he begs for relief, wouldn’t we expect Abraham to say, “When your sins are paid for, then you will no longer suffer”? But Abraham offers him no hope for relief.

Annihilation is an attractive teaching compared to the alternative—I would gladly embrace it, were it taught in Scripture. But though I’ve tried, I just can’t find it there.

Annihilation would not satisfy God’s justice and solve the problem of evil.

Do you believe that Stalin, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin got their just punishment in this life? Do you think the life imprisonment of Charles Manson—in which he receives food, clothes, reading material, television privileges, and protection from other inmates—supplies full justice for his arrogant, unrepentant slaughter of innocent human beings? Would eternal nonexistence be a just punishment for such men? In what sense does an annihilated person, who by definition experiences nothing, experience any punishment at all?

Can you imagine God saying to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao at the final judgment, “For all your evil rebellion against me and your unspeakable crimes against humanity, your punishment is to no longer be conscious”? The “pain” of nonexistence is no pain at all. To cease to exist is to not be held accountable for sin. How could God satisfy his justice if he responded to despicable sins against himself and humanity by merely flicking a switch into nothingness?

Annihilation is no solution to the injustice of evil and suffering. If it were true, annihilation might itself raise a serious moral problem, for it suggests that our sins are not so grievous and the consequences for committing them are painless, or at worst exist only for a limited time.

If, as the Bible teaches, Christ’s redemptive work is so magnificent that it delivers us from an eternal Hell, then it should elicit maximum worship from us. But if it delivers us only from nonexistence—which is exactly the end atheists, naturalists, and materialists believe in—then we may feel grateful to God for what we are rescued to, Heaven, but not so grateful for what he rescued us from, mere nonexistence.

Although the doctrine of annihilation continues to gain ground among believers, Christians must realize that embracing this doctrine minimizes, or worse, eliminates altogether the horrors of Hell. This doctrine in its most popular form merely confirms what most unbelievers already think, that their lives will end at death, and therefore there’s nothing to be concerned about. In contrast, the Bible speaks of an eternal Hell as something that should motivate unbelievers to turn to God, and motivate believers to share the gospel with urgency.

People commonly ask, “Why would God inflict infinite punishment for finite sins? Isn’t that disproportionate punishment and therefore unjust?”

Scripture nowhere teaches infinite punishment; rather, it teaches punishment proportionate to the evil committed. The confusion comes in mistaking eternal for infinite. No one will bear in Hell an infinite number of offenses; they will bear only the sins they have committed (see Revelation 20:12–13).

The length of time spent committing a crime does not determine the length of the sentence for that crime. It may take five seconds to murder a child, but five seconds of punishment would hardly bring appropriate justice. Crimes committed against an infinitely holy God cannot be paid for in finite measures of time.

John Piper, agreeing with the viewpoint of Jonathan Edwards, says, “The length of your sin isn’t what makes the length of suffering just, it’s the height of your sin that makes the length of the suffering just.”[12]

[crakjak]

No one is saved by their own desert, nor by their on works, it is the grace of God. No man can come except he be drawn.

By John Piper's and Jonathan Edward's theology, God is partial and guarantees that the vast majority are lost. The Savior of only a few, not of all men, nor of the world.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

By John Piper's and Jonathan Edward's theology, God is partial and guarantees that the vast majority are lost. The Savior of only a few, not of all men, nor of the world.

Are you a universalist?