Theoretical question about baptism

Amanah · #1 10-20-2011, 11:18 AM

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Baptism is for the Remission of sins, that the blood is applied when a person is baptized in Jesus Name.

Let's say that someone who is a one stepper baptizes people in Jesus name, and neither the person baptizing, nor the person being baptized believes that it's for the remission of sins

And if indeed, baptism is actually for the remission of sins

Would the baptism be valid? or would the lack of faith in the regeneration of the baptism void it?

mfblume · #2 10-20-2011, 11:21 AM

I seriously doubt that the person being baptized would think of it in those terms either way, unless they have been in church for years and suddenly see the need for baptism and considered that aspect. So the question may be whether or not God determines the validity based upon the baptizer as opposed to the simple act of faithful obedience in the baptizee.

TGBTG · #3 10-20-2011, 11:50 AM

I agree with what Bro Blume said above. A new believer, (except the one that has been in church) has no idea what baptism is for. The new believer just wants to obey Jesus after conversion. So when the new believer is told to get baptized, the believer obeys without even asking what it is for. As long as Jesus said it, the new believer wants to do it.
So it would NOT matter what the believer thinks baptism is for, as long as he has obeyed the commandment.

I think a good case can be made for this from Jesus' story in Matt 21:28-31

28But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

It is the action of the individual that counts towards God whether he even understands why he is doing it. As long as he is obeying God's word.

In fact, this is why I personally do NOT believe FSH baptism is invalid. Let me say for the record, I do believe that the Name of Jesus Christ ought to be invoked at water baptism, for we see that's what the apostles did.

However, the act of obedience is in getting baptized NOT the baptizer saying something over you, else, our salvation would TOTALLY depend on the baptizer's words INSTEAD of of the baptizee's FAITH. Again, a new believer has no idea about FSH or Jesus' name baptism. All he knows is that Jesus said to get baptized and he has obeyed Jesus' commandments.

Also check out Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him

According to Acts 5:32, God gives the HolyGhost to them that obey Him. So if God is giving the HolyGhost to 1-steppers, and 3-steppers alike, and trinitarians, who then is obeying God?

I believe the obedience is in getting baptized based on the baptizee's faith in the PERSON of the Lord Jesus.

mfblume · #4 10-20-2011, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I believe the obedience is in getting baptized based on the baptizee's faith in the PERSON of the Lord Jesus.

Amen. The issue is the CROSS and what a person believes about the work of the cross, because baptism is baptizing someone into the death of Jesus. If one realizes there is no other way for salvation aside from Christ's work in death, burial and resurrection, then they know all they need to know about baptism.

TGBTG · #5 10-20-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. The issue is the CROSS and what a person believes about the work of the cross, because baptism is baptizing someone into the death of Jesus. If one realizes there is no other way for salvation aside from Christ's work in death, burial and resurrection, then they know all they need to know about baptism.

Amen!

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

They were baptized upon the profession of their faith in the work of Christ.

Mk 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

NOT
He that believeth and is baptized (and understands the meaning and implication of baptism) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Amanah · #6 10-20-2011, 12:09 PM

thank you

ThePastorsCoach · #7 10-20-2011, 02:26 PM

Amanah, Baptism simply does NOT wash sins away. The Blood of Jesus washes sins away when a man or woman repents and asks God to forgive them - HE DOES! RIGHT THEN AND THERE!
People that put more emphasis on Water instead of the Blood and Baptism instead of Repentance - need to read the Word of God. People were repenting and God was forgiving them LONG before anybody got baptized in the Name of Jesus or any other way!

Baptism is a covenant between You and God to take on the Name of Jesus Christ and be a disciple of His. We all know there was NO WAY the thousands baptized in the early days of the NT church knew anything about any "Oneness" doctrine or the argument between being baptized in the Father, Son & Holy Ghost or in the Name of Jesus Christ. They simply were cut to the heart and wanted to identify with and follow the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized into the body of believers. They did not get baptized to remit their sins!

TGBTG · #8 10-20-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

Amanah, Baptism simply does NOT wash sins away. The Blood of Jesus washes sins away when a man or woman repents and asks God to forgive them - HE DOES! RIGHT THEN AND THERE!
People that put more emphasis on Water instead of the Blood and Baptism instead of Repentance - need to read the Word of God. People were repenting and God was forgiving them LONG before anybody got baptized in the Name of Jesus or any other way!

Baptism is a covenant between You and God to take on the Name of Jesus Christ and be a disciple of His. We all know there was NO WAY the thousands baptized in the early days of the NT church knew anything about any "Oneness" doctrine or the argument between being baptized in the Father, Son & Holy Ghost or in the Name of Jesus Christ. They simply were cut to the heart and wanted to identify with and follow the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized into the body of believers. They did not get baptized to remit their sins!

AB, while I agree with the spirit of your post, I think Amanah's question in a nutshell was "Would a person's baptism be valid if the person getting baptized did not believe it was for the remission of sins, but still got baptized?" IOW, is understanding the meaning of baptism as important as actually getting baptized?

ThePastorsCoach · #9 10-20-2011, 02:41 PM

[QUOTE=TGBTG;1107301]AB, while I agree with the spirit of your post, I think Amanah's question in a nutshell was "Would a person's baptism be valid if the person getting baptized did not believe it was for the remission of sins, but still got baptized?" IOW, is understanding the meaning of baptism as important as actually getting baptized?[/QUOTE]

The answer to that question is no! Most people on here still don't understand it - isn't that what the argument between "one-steppers" and "three-steppers" is?

The fact is - you do not have to understand it or have any special Revelation of it or have a preacher take half the service to explain WHY we DO NOT baptized like the Catholic Church in the title's Father, Son and Holy Ghost!

As NIKE says..............."JUST DO IT!"

Praxeas · #10 10-20-2011, 02:46 PM

We are saved by faith. A person having real saving faith is obedient not disobedient to such commands. No where ever in Acts does a believe quiz the Apostles over baptism or put it off for a few weeks.

Paul says "you have obeyed from the heart" and James "faith without works is dead"

What matters is a heart full of true faith and true faith is obedient faith