Westboro Baptist Church Similarities

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Ritual doesn't disqualify relationship. There are MANY rituals we all take part in because we have relationships. Look at your marriage. How many things are done out of a ritual because you love your spouse?

They may be unnecessary, but they aren't out of a lack of relationship. Rather they typically are done because one does love their spouse and wishes to please them...even if they don't have to do siad things to please them.

True, but this thread isn't about marriage rituals. I mentioned rituals in response to NITW's comment about Love and Conviction from Holiness preachers.

IF, and that's a big IF, love and "conviction" are conveyed from holiness preachers, there wouldn't be near as many backsliders, IMO...

[riverslivnwtr]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I agree with you here, but, must say I don't think I have ever heard it preached jewely sends you to hell...

If jewelry ever sits on the throne of Judgment, you had better watch out!

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Dagwood

True, but this thread isn't about marriage rituals. I mentioned rituals in response to NITW's comment about Love and Conviction from Holiness preachers.

IF, and that's a big IF, love and "conviction" are conveyed from holiness preachers, there wouldn't be near as many backsliders, IMO...

I've not heard it without love in nearly 20 years of church. We may argue the necessity of the "rituals' of holiness, but I can't argue the love for God and the people by those who preach them. I have always heard it from men who are convinced, even if convinced of a falsehood, that following such rituals is our means of expressing our love and representin our relationship with God. Many do what they do because they have been convinced that doing said things is "how" they demonstrate their love for God.

We can agree that many such rituals are not necessary, but if it makes them happy then who cares?

Now, when they forget about relationship and the rituals become their limus test fo rwhetehr someone else really loves God or not...then I am with you that they have missed the point and are out of line.

I buy my wife the Reeses Ice cream whenever I go to the grocery because I know she loves it and I wish to please her is vastly different from "if I don't buy her the ice cream I must not really love my wife". In the same way, a person following the "standards" because they love God and feel that is the way they demonstrate it is fine and need not be comdemned by those who feel they are "free" from "bondage". However, when the rituals they follow seemingly give them the right to say those who don't follow as strickly as them just don't really love or have a relationship with God...that individual has elevated the rituals over the relationship.

[Steve Epley]

Stupid thread started by a bigot against the Apostolic church.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Stupid thread started by a bigot against the Apostolic church.

Far from it. This thread is merely comparing the radical views of Westboro and some very-similar-in-principal radical views of "holiness" preachers. Jesus was radically different, radically against "the establishment" and pharisees. Many of "the established" are very pharisee-spirited, whether Westboro or otherwise. You probaby know a few and "hang out" with them. I don't know...

You have your opinions and others have theirs. The common denominator of both is that they stink as bad as sewer lines...

[Chateau d'If]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Ask Steve Epley if he believes holiness is part of the gospel. Ask any Oneness standards-keeping conservative if holiness is part of the gospel.

They will say yes. They will say that "without holiness no man will see God." They will say that you can't be saved without holiness, and that holiness includes no makeup or jewelry.

They believe wearing those things will send you to Hell.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Stupid thread started by a bigot against the Apostolic church.

Typical.

Aren't you the preacher who won't let a guy with facial hair attend your church?

I am not very old but I have experienced many sermons in which the preacher took a stand for Apostolic holiness. This was almost always presented with disdain, and sometimes with hate, toward compromise.

[Chateau d'If]

Originally Posted by Narrow Is The Way

And while you're at it.

Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Faith.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Love.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Deliverance.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Miracles.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in One God.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Mercy.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Baptism in Jesus Name.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Restoration.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Prayer.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against lying.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against stealing.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against having a bad attitude.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against cheating.

I am sure he would answer yes to all the above.

Quit acting like the Holiness preachers are just one-trick ponies.

Just because you found a few idiots along the way does not mean that Holiness preachers don't have a right to preach Holiness with Love and Conviction.

It takes the whole package to be saved.
You will not be saved without inward and outward holiness.

Just because somebody has more lines than you do, does not make them a pharisee.

Sorry, not buying it.

And this post clearly shows the soteriology of most Apostolics. It's always presented as what it takes instead of Who it takes. It's about rules and not relationship.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Dagwood

Far from it. This thread is merely comparing the radical views of Westboro and some very-similar-in-principal radical views of "holiness" preachers. Jesus was radically different, radically against "the establishment" and pharisees. Many of "the established" are very pharisee-spirited, whether Westboro or otherwise. You probaby know a few and "hang out" with them. I don't know...

You have your opinions and others have theirs. The common denominator of both is that they stink as bad as sewer lines...

you might want to hear some of the sermons, there is one by Bro Epley located at the bottom of the list
also one by Nona Freeman

http://www.apostolicclassics.com/sermons.html

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Sorry, not buying it.

And this post clearly shows the soteriology of most Apostolics. It's always presented as what it takes instead of Who it takes. It's about rules and not relationship.

[Amanah]

It may be about rules too, but you can't say it's not about relationship for Apostolics.

I had an incredible relationship with God the 13 years I was an UC. And I don't doubt that the preachers I knew loved God and loved people.

What hurt me was the elitist and controlling attitudes, and the feeling that I could never be good enough, no matter how hard I tried.

What is hindering me now, is that many have abandoned the old time pentecostal mind set and legalistic preaching, fine, but many have also gone even further and altered the message.

So we are at a crossroad where people have gone from having standards shoved down their throats to having to stand on their own two feet and find a place to stand for themselves.

It's a whole nother journey when you are trying to set your own moral compass and define truth when the lighthouse is being obscured by a storm.