You think Trinitarians accept you?

[Dante]

Personally, I don't care if trinitarians accept me or not. Frankly, I don't really care what anyone thinks about me or my beliefs. I'm too busy focused on my personal walk with God to be concerned with anything else at this point.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Dante

Personally, I don't care if trinitarians accept me or not. Frankly, I don't really care what anyone thinks about me or my beliefs. I'm too busy focused on my personal walk with God to be concerned with anything else at this point.

I understand what you're saying...

But the point is that for centuries, Oneness theology (modalism) has been regarded as heresy by the church. I am not saying that people should just accept Trinitarianism for that simple reason, but at least it should make us pause and think very carefully.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

I understand what you're saying...

But the point is that for centuries, Oneness theology (modalism) has been regarded as heresy by the church. I am not saying that people should just accept Trinitarianism for that simple reason, but at least it should make us pause and think very carefully.

This is a false argument. It's two logical fallacies, argument of numbers and argument of antiquities.

Let me give an example..Let's say it's the first 40 years of the Protestant Reformation and you are a Protestant that does not believe baptism is essential. A Roman Catholic says to you "The church has always viewed your position as heretical, baptism is essential". See my point?

The Trinity was a doctrine in development and did not historically exist in it's present form for several centuries after the Apostles. At one point it was declared the official doctrine of "the church" by a Roman Emperor. Later it was changed to heretical by a Roman Emperor and Arianism was the dominant view...all because of Secular influence.

In other words the "church" was meddled with by secular and often pagan Roman officials. They saw unifying the Christian sects as a benefit to their Empire. That is how people have come to the view today that the church is Trinitarian

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is a false argument. It's two logical fallacies, argument of numbers and argument of antiquities.

Let me give an example..Let's say it's the first 40 years of the Protestant Reformation and you are a Protestant that does not believe baptism is essential. A Roman Catholic says to you "The church has always viewed your position as heretical, baptism is essential". See my point?

The Trinity was a doctrine in development and did not historically exist in it's present form for several centuries after the Apostles. At one point it was declared the official doctrine of "the church" by a Roman Emperor. Later it was changed to heretical by a Roman Emperor and Arianism was the dominant view...all because of Secular influence.

In other words the "church" was meddled with by secular and often pagan Roman officials. They saw unifying the Christian sects as a benefit to their Empire. That is how people have come to the view today that the church is Trinitarian

I agree with your argument about numbers and antiquity. That's why I said that we should not just accept Trinitarianism for that reason, but we should at least think about it very carefully. Your Protestant Reformation example was bouncing around in my head when I wrote my previous comment. On the other hand, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses could use a good dose of respect for historic Christianity!

Here is a portion from a recent blog post by Carl Trueman regarding TD Jakes and the Elephant Room:

Further, to place Nicene orthodoxy in the category of over-scrupulous doctrinal precisianism is, in effect, to declare the entire church (except for strands of American evangelicalism, apparently) from 381 to the present day to be wrong-headed. True catholic Christianity has always regarded Nicene orthodoxy as vital. An evangelicalism which argues for the basic irrelevance of such is simply not part of that catholic tradition; rather than being generously connected to other believers, it effectively isolates itself from the mainstream Christian tradition. Maybe there are consciences here bound to scripture. I would certainly never demand that a man subscribe to something which he does not see in scripture; but for myself, I need more than a few brief blog comments to understand why I should abandon Nicaea as crucial to salvation, revelation and my doctrine of who God is and what he has done. I want to know how and why Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin and Owen, to name just eight representatives of Trinitarianism, considered this to be more than a matter of over-scrupulousness. A humble listening to the past is important for the church in any circumstance; in the context of the creeds, such listening is absolutely non-negotiable.

[emphasis added]

Read the whole post here: http://www.reformation21.org/blog/20...ty-that-im.php

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

So, during one of the sessions of the next Elephant Room, they apparently are going to talk about the majors and minors of Christian doctrine (ie, Trinitarian and Oneness theology). Discussion between Driscoll and Jakes, moderated by MacDonald.

See recent blog post:

http://jamesmacdonald.com/blog/?p=10430

I was listening to a radio program today where the host was upset that this was not the first session and focusing solely on TD Jakes being a modalist or trinitarian. They thought that if Jakes did not renounce oneness and repent of it then they should ask him to leave.

James MacDonald has said that he believes Jakes is a trinitarian and it would come out during the conference. Which only makes the reformed crowd even angrier that if he is a trinitarian, why hasn't he corrected the error with his church and tv following.

It'll be interesting. I wanted to watch it, but the simulcast in my area has been cancelled.

[FlamingZword]

I have the feeling the whole thing is a set up to make oneness believers look bad.
I would not think it beneatht the trinitarians to twist the whole event into some kind of circus.

it is their show hosted by a trinitarian, so obvioously the oneness doctrine will be victimized with some type of ambush.

I predict it will be a high tech bashing of the oneness position. mark my words

[Jay]

The actual fact is the no one knows where exactly T.D. Jakes stands on this issue because he has been intintially vague in his comments. He seeks to play both sides of the fence, and this may be the time that he finds that sitting on a fence is most uncomfortable eventually.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Jay

The actual fact is the no one knows where exactly T.D. Jakes stands on this issue because he has been intintially vague in his comments. He seeks to play both sides of the fence, and this may be the time that he finds that sitting on a fence is most uncomfortable eventually.

He is a one stepper, which means he counts people saved at repentance. He then also believes that baptism should be in the Name of Jesus, and in receiving the HG speaking in tongues.

which, I think, is the position of most of the people on this board.

It could be that with Apostolics moving towards saved at repentance, and the popularity of the (non-denominational) mega churches, that there will be less disagreement, more commonality, really no reason to debate.

[TheChariot]

Originally Posted by Amanah

He then also believes that baptism should be in the Name of Jesus,

That's not necessarily true. I know someone who was baptized at Potter's House, and it was in the name of F, S, HG. In fact, the Potter House Denver is very open about its Trinitarianism: http://www.tphd.org/believe.php

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Dante

Personally, I don't care if trinitarians accept me or not. Frankly, I don't really care what anyone thinks about me or my beliefs. I'm too busy focused on my personal walk with God to be concerned with anything else at this point.

Come on, Dante, "I don't really care what anyone thinks about me", is simply not true. We might say this, but no Human Being actually feels this way. We all care what others think about us.

Too busy with your personal walk with God to be concerned with anything else???? What Planet do you live on?