Was Jesus born on December 25? Does Jeremiah the prophet say something about fastening a tree to a platform and decking it with silver and gold? Does YHWH say learn not the way of the heathen?
Oh c'mon bro, that prophecy has nothing to do with celebrating christmas.
Jer 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
This prophecy in context was dealing with Israel's idol worship. They were literally doing what the heathens were doing, by worshipping objects.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Christians who are celebrating christmas (or easter) are celebrating unto the Lord (not unto the christmas tree...lol).
And those who do not feel like celebrating, they also are doing it unto the Lord
Rom 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
The service is now over...you may all go home and eat your ham (or turkey if you are British...LOL)
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Yeah, how can you do what you do for a living and not believe? And look at all those beautiful people you have to share with.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Oh c'mon bro, that prophecy has nothing to do with celebrating christmas.
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
This prophecy in context was dealing with Israel's idol worship. They were literally doing what the heathens were doing, by worshipping objects.
I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.
But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...
The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Rom 14
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Christians who are celebrating christmas (or easter) are celebrating unto the Lord (not unto the christmas tree...lol).
And those who do not feel like celebrating, they also are doing it unto the Lord
This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.
But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Rom 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Did he really mean that as it is being expressed here? Nothing is unclean of itself? Adultery is not unclean of itself? Murder is not unclean of itself?
No... I am not comparing these things to christmas. I am simply making the statement that this verse is not saying what it is accused of saying. There are things that are wrong.
I believe that the apostles would have warned against combining the worship of heathen gods with the worship of the true God.
But... again... this is my take and my interpretation and to press it on others would be useless and unfruitful.
There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.
When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.
Last edited by Digging4Truth; 12-09-2011 at 02:37 PM.
we cant hang the boys stockings. they are 4 feet long. we hang them up on the silver stocking hooks that sit on the mantle, they will pull them down and those heavy silver things will crash down on the poor darlings heads!
LOL
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I always thought thats just what it meant. No, Adultery is not unclean of itself. Nor any other sin or crime. We can name them what we want, but without one to commit them, there is nothing unclean being performed. An action (verb) can not be unclean to itself because it takes an unclean person (noun) to commit said action.
Jumping and running are nothing in and of itself, unless there is someone or thing performing the action. I always thought that was the meaning of that scripture. It's not what is being done, its the heart of the one doing it.
The same is said in scripture of the opposite, we can do good, but if not doing so for the love of Christ then there is nothing good in it.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
I was going to tell those who don't do the holidays about something I found and just bought on ebay. It is a CD Rom with 40 different book on it that revolve around the issue of the pagan origins of christmas.
I did my studying on this issue years ago and I don't study on it much anymore but I was intrigued by this list of books because they are from the 1800's & early 1900's. These are the references that are hard to find and they are the books that contain information that comes from the early days of the debate on this issue before it was well engrained into christianity. I view this as a valuable resource and it cost a little over $5 after shipping.
So... in case anyone is interested here is the info. (Some book explanations had to be deleted to get under the 12000 character limit)
Quote:
The Pagan Origins of Christmas - Many Books on CDROM either scanned from the originals to PDF or imported into PDF format for your reading or printing pleasure.
In the early eighteenth century, scholars began discovering the true origins of the Christmas festival. Isaac Newton argued that the date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the winter solstice, which in ancient times was marked on December 25. In 1743, German Protestant Paul Ernst Jablonski argued Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a "paganization" that debased the true church.
Contents of CDROM -
Myths and Legends of Christmastide BY Bertha F. Herrick 1901
Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions by Thomas Doane 1882 (Searchable PDF)
"This shows that the heathen in those days, did as the Christians do now. What have evergreens, and garlands, and Christmas trees, to do with Christianity? Simply nothing. It is the old Yule-feast which was held by all the northern nations, from time immemorial, handed down to, and observed at the present day. In the greenery with which Christians deck their houses and temples of worship, and in the Christmas-trees laden with gifts, we unquestionably see a relic of the symbols by which our heathen forefathers signified their faith in the powers of the returning sun to clothe the earth again with green, and hang new fruit on the trees."
Cross-Examining Santa Clause in the Century Magazine 1922
Christmas & the Nativity of Mithras (Open Court) 1904
Bibliotheca Sacra - Religions and the New Testament 1908
The Christmas book: Christmas in the Olden Time, its Customs and their Origins 1859
The Religion of Mithra - Eclectic Magazine 1888
Primitive Culture: Researches Into the Development of Mythology, Philosophy, Religion, Language by Edward Tylor 1889 Volume 2 "Two other Christian festivals have not merely had solar rites transferred to them, but seem distinctly themselves of solar origin."
Origin of the Sabbath by Parish Ladd in the Free Thought Magazine 1899
The Book of Christmas by Hamilton Wright Mabie 1910
The Christmas Tree in Taylor Trott Magazine 1907
On the Origin of the Celebration of Christmas from the New Monthly Magazine 1821
Early Christmas Carols and Customs in the Bostonian 1896
Traditions of Eden; or, Proofs of the Historical Truth of the Pentateuch by Henry Shepherd 1871
Religion, Theology and Morals By Harvey W Scott 1917
The Galaxy Magazine 1878
Article on the pagan origins of Christmas in the Christian Review 1840
Yule and Christmas, their Place in the Germanic Year by Alexander Tille 1899 (searchable PDF)
Folk Lore/Superstitious Beliefs in Scotland with an Appendix Showing the Probable Relation of the Modern Festivals of Christmas, May Day, St. John's Day, and Halloween to Ancient Sun and Fire Worship 1879 by James Napier
Sun Lore of All Ages, a Collection of Myths and Legends Concerning the Sun by William Tyler Olcott (searchable PDF) 1914
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge Vol. 12, 1912
"It has also been conjectured that the day was selected because of its significance in the Roman calendar, where it bore the name of dies invicti solia, "the day of the unconquered sun", since on this day the sun began to regain its power and overcame the night."
Sun Worship in Bihar - Calcutta Review 1904
Pagan & Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning by Edward Carpenter 1920
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop,
Christmas In Ritual and Tradition, Christian and Pagan by Clement A. Miles 1912
The Sacred Tree: Or, The Tree in Religion and Myth by J. H. Philpot, Isaline Philpot 1897
THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS IS HE A MYTH? by M. M. Mangasarian
We can only offer a few additional remarks to what we have already
said elsewhere in these pages on the Pagan origin of Christmas. It
will make us grateful to remember that just as we have to go to the
Pagans for the origins of our civilized institutions--our courts of
justice, our art and literature, and our political and religious
liberties--we must thank them also for our merry festivals, such as
Christmas and Easter.
Christmas and the Saturnalia - Article from Bibliotheca Sacra and Theological Review 1855
"While, therefore, we would not say with Prynne, that all pious
Christians should abominate this festival, we do say that it has
neither the historic dignity, the moral significance, nor the sacred
associations, that every such institution should possess to command
the approval of the Christian world."
Observations on Popular Antiquities, Chiefly Illustrating the Origin of our Vulgar Customs, Ceremonies and Superstitions by John Brand Volume 1, 1813
Observations on Popular Antiquities, Chiefly Illustrating the Origin of our Vulgar Customs, Ceremonies and Superstitions by John Brand Volume 2, 1813
The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion by James George Frazer
The Star of the Wise Men - being a Commentary on the Second Chapter of St. Matthew by Richard Trench 1850
The Wise Men: Who They Were and how They Came to Jerusalem by Francis William Upham 1901
The Origins of Christianity by Charles Bigg, Thomas Banks Strong 1909 (Easter Controversy)
CHRISTMAS - ITS ORIGIN, CELEBRATION AND SIGNIFICANCE AS RELATED IN PROSE AND VERSE by ROBERT HAVEN SCHAUFFLER 1907
Excerpt: The pagan nations of antiquity always had a tendency to worship the sun, under different names, as the giver of light and life. And their festivals in its honor took place near the winter solstice, the shortest day in the year, when the sun in December begins its upward course, thrilling men with the first distant promise of spring. This holiday was called Saturnalia among the Romans and was marked by great merriment and licence which extended even to the slaves. There were feasting and gifts and the houses were hung with evergreens. A more barbarous form of these rejoicings took place among the rude peoples of the north where great blocks of wood blazed in honor of Odin and Thor, and sacrifices of men and cattle were made to them. Mistletoe was cut then from the sacred oaks with a golden sickle by the Prince of the Druids, between whom and the Fire-Worshippers of Persia there was an affinity both in character and customs."
Sex and Sex Worship by Otto Augustus Wall 1920 EDIT
The egg has in all ages been considered a sacred emblem of
spring; of the rejuvenation of nature after the winter sleep. In
Pagan times ornamented eggs were presented to friends, to celebrate
the re-awakening of life in the spring; and this Pagan
festival, but thinly disguised as being emblematic of the resurrection
of Christ, persists in our Easter festival and its attendant
gifts of Easter eggs.
CHRISTMAS: ITS ORIGIN AND ASSOCIATIONS, TOGETHER WITH ITS HISTORICAL EVENTS AND FESTIVE CELEBRATIONS DURING NINETEEN CENTURIES BY W. F. DAWSON 1902 (searchable PDF)
Esoteric Christianity, Or, The Lesser Mysteries: Or, The Lesser Mysteries by Annie Wood Besant 1913
"The relation of the winter solstice to Jesus is also significant. The birth of Mithras was celebrated in the winter solstice with great rejoicings, and Horus was also
then born: "His birth is one of the greatest mysteries of the [Egyptian] religion. Pictures representing it appeared on the walls of temples. . . . He was the child of
Deity. At Christmas time, or that answering to our festival, his image was brought out of the sanctuary with peculiar ceremonies, as the image of the infant Bambino is still brought out and exhibited at Rome." On the fixing of the 25th December as the birthday of Jesus, Williamson has the following: "All Christians know that the
25th December is now the recognised festival of the birth of Jesus, but few are aware that this has not always been so. There have been, it is said, one hundred and thirty-six different dates fixed on by different Christian sects. Lightfoot gives it as 15th September, others as in February or August.
The Secret Teachings of All Ages By Manly P. Hall 1928
STUDIES IN THE PSYCHOLOGY OF SEX VOLUME I BY HAVELOCK ELLIS 1927 (searchable PDF)
"Frazer (Golden Bough, 2d ed., 1900, vol. iii, pp. 236-350) fully describes and discusses the dances, bonfires and festivals of spring and summer, of Halloween (October 31), and Christmas. He also explains the sexual character of these festivals."
Pagan Christs: Studies in Comparative Hierology by John Mackinnon Robertson 1903
"The Mithraic Christians actually continued to celebrate Christmas Day as the birthday of the sun, despite the censures of the Pope, and their Sunday had been adopted by the
supplanting faith. When they listened to the Roman litany of the holy name of Jesus, they knew they were listening' to the very epithets of the Sun-God...Others than
Mithraists, of course, would offend, Christmas being an Osirian and Adonisian festival also.
Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.
I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.
But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...
The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.
This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.
But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.
I totally understand your sentiments. I don't even concern myself with xmas...it's too much of a headache for me. It's funny I'm "defending" this...I really am apathetic to celebrations in general (even my birthday...lol)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth
There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.
When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.
All I'm saying is if xmas is truly celebrated by giving thanks to God in the name of our Lod Jesus, I don't think that should be considered pagan worship.
I'm sure there are people who have gotten born again during an xmas service...
Ofcourse, some people are always gonna make an idol out of any holiday, whether xmas, easter, or july 4th..lol
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
I always thought thats just what it meant. No, Adultery is not unclean of itself. Nor any other sin or crime. We can name them what we want, but without one to commit them, there is nothing unclean being performed. An action (verb) can not be unclean to itself because it takes an unclean person (noun) to commit said action.
Jumping and running are nothing in and of itself, unless there is someone or thing performing the action. I always thought that was the meaning of that scripture. It's not what is being done, its the heart of the one doing it.
The same is said in scripture of the opposite, we can do good, but if not doing so for the love of Christ then there is nothing good in it.
Where there is no action there is no adultery. But any time there is adultery... there is sin. Without fail.
Where there is no action there is no adultery. But any time there is adultery... there is sin. Without fail.
True, but it takes an unclean entity to perform the action, therefore the action itself can not be the "unclean" part of the equation. At least thats the way I have always taken that scripture.
__________________ You can't reach the world with your talents. People are sick and tired of religious talents. People need a Holy Ghost annointed church with real fruits to reach out and touch their lives. ~ Pastor Burrell Crabtree
In fact I think that the insinuation of "hateful" Pentecostals is coming mostly from the fertile imaginations of bitter, backslidden ex Apostolics who are constantly trying to find a way to justify their actions. ~ strait shooter
I totally understand your sentiments. I don't even concern myself with xmas...it's too much of a headache for me. It's funny I'm "defending" this...I really am apathetic to celebrations in general (even my birthday...lol)
I'm the same way. In "celebrating" anything what do we do? Soother our own psyche? Americans are event oriented in so many ways. We have a concert to raise money to help farmers and we all go home feeling better because we had an event.
We don't focus on anniversaries etc either (although I do take my wife out on our anniversary) because we're just not even oriented people. What I mean by that is this... it's more important that I let her know how much I love her every single day than the fact that I get her something on that one day. And then I take her out to eat on top of all of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
All I'm saying is if xmas is truly celebrated by giving thanks to God in the name of our Lod Jesus, I don't think that should be considered pagan worship.
I'm sure there are people who have gotten born again during an xmas service...
Ofcourse, some people are always gonna make an idol out of any holiday, whether xmas, easter, or july 4th..lol
Yes sir...
Not pressing you or anything... but if you feel so inclined to comment I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following...
How do you feel our present day use of worship methods of heathen origin differs from those times in the Bible that God found such things so offensive?
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