Deathbed Salvation

[Aquila]

We are quick to claim the authority of John 20:23 when it comes to water baptism... but not when anointing the sick and perhaps dying.

Elders have to wake up and realize that they have far more authority than they are aware of.

[Aquila]

So, deacon blues... did you bring up any of the points I've made in this discussion you had with the ministers you mentioned???

[deacon blues]

No I left the conversation b/c they started with the whole, "You have to believe A238 to be on this forum, so unless you're willing to keep your anti-Apostolic views to yourself, you need to do the honorable thing and leave this forum." So since I want to remain on that forum, I told them Id take the conversation here.

You make some interesting points. Ultimately God's mercy is greater than man's. It seems unjust that someone who lived like the devil can slip in the eleventh hour and get saved. But as was mentioned before in Matt 20 God says "what business is it of yours? Its my money and I can pay whatever I want to whomever I want!" I contend that a dying soul can cry out to God and God would respomd with love and mercy. The argument was made on the other forum that Matt 20 wasn't referring to salvation. Of course.

As far as the theif on the cross is concerned, when one makes the argument that he was saved under OT Law, then they're saying that it was easier to acquire grace and mercy in the OT than it is in the NT. Its a nonsense argument. The man could not do anything but exercise faith in Jesus, which he did, and as a result Christ told him he was saved. A perfect picture of grace.

Legalists have to create all sorts of crazy interpretations of scripture because the theology is flawed and inconsistent with the whole of scripture. Cherry pick your favorite passages, only refer to them and then dance around the problematic scriptures with cop outs.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Legalists have to create all sorts of crazy interpretations of scripture because the theology is flawed and inconsistent with the whole of scripture. Cherry pick your favorite passages, only refer to them and then dance around the problematic scriptures with cop outs.

There is a lot of that going on in most posts. The legalists have very few scriptures at their resource, and they use them over and over, choosing to ignore context.

I don't know about deathbed repentance. It does seem wrong that someone could live their life as a devil, and then repent in their dying moments. But we are not called to judge eternal salvation, only God does this.

The reference given above in Matthew 20 I think could certainly go along with this question of deathbed repentence.

Matthew 20:15-16 says "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

This certainly could be taking about dying, and the next life. Many are called, but few chosen... again, it is still in the hands of our God the answer to this question.

And no man has the final answer to deathbed salvation. Only God does, and in His capable hands it must rest.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

On the minister's forum I started this thread with quite a bit of healthy debate, but alas some wearied of the challenge to OP doctrine and requested that I cease. Since I know there is a variety of opinion here and freedom of ideas is allowed I wanted to continue the debate here. I offered that some would come over here to keep the conversation going.

Simply put, if a man was dying, with moments to live and he repented of his sins, I believe his sins would be forgiven and he would be cleansed from all unrighteousness. If Jesus can't save him in those circumstances, He's not much of a savior.

(Mind you this is an answer coming from a staunch three-stepper).

He is a just judge.

However, scripture is clear that there's only one Biblical plan of salvation. If they LITERALLY JUST heard the plan of salvation at their death bed, and didn't have time to respond, I would say that would be God's choice and decision on whether or not they had enough warning before hand.

If you reject Jesus Christ repeatedly in your life and then all of a sudden you want to "get it right with the big man of stairs" of course I don't believe a just God would honor that.

I will say at my church we do have a testimony of a man who did have a legitimate death bed repentance. He'd never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ before he was days from death in the hospital, and prayed that if God would raise him up from his condition he's repent, be baptized, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. God was faithful, saw the man's heart that he had a true heart of repentance and restored him miraculously to health.

Despite being called a "legalist" or whatever because I believe in the truth that you must be BORN AGAIN according to Peter's testimony in Acts 2:38... the God I serve is still a just God. He made provision when he saw a true broken and repentant heart. It's my personal opinion that THAT is how God honors TRUE death bed repentance. "God if you raise me up, I'll live for you"... not "God, can I get into Heaven pretty please?"

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

No I left the conversation b/c they started with the whole, "You have to believe A238 to be on this forum, so unless you're willing to keep your anti-Apostolic views to yourself, you need to do the honorable thing and leave this forum." So since I want to remain on that forum, I told them Id take the conversation here.

You make some interesting points. Ultimately God's mercy is greater than man's. It seems unjust that someone who lived like the devil can slip in the eleventh hour and get saved. But as was mentioned before in Matt 20 God says "what business is it of yours? Its my money and I can pay whatever I want to whomever I want!" I contend that a dying soul can cry out to God and God would respomd with love and mercy. The argument was made on the other forum that Matt 20 wasn't referring to salvation. Of course.

As far as the theif on the cross is concerned, when one makes the argument that he was saved under OT Law, then they're saying that it was easier to acquire grace and mercy in the OT than it is in the NT. Its a nonsense argument. The man could not do anything but exercise faith in Jesus, which he did, and as a result Christ told him he was saved. A perfect picture of grace.

Legalists have to create all sorts of crazy interpretations of scripture because the theology is flawed and inconsistent with the whole of scripture. Cherry pick your favorite passages, only refer to them and then dance around the problematic scriptures with cop outs.

That is the exact point I repeatedly make when the expected "Well he died in the OT so he didn't HAVE to do the three step formula....", no in the OT you were expected to sacrifice animals in order to push your sins, bulldozer style, until the next expected sacrifice!

[Michael The Disciple]

Well if the person was ordained to eternal life there would be no reason he could not recover since God is sovereign concerning our salvation and when we die. It does not take him by surprise.

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

On the minister's forum I started this thread with quite a bit of healthy debate, but alas some wearied of the challenge to OP doctrine and requested that I cease. Since I know there is a variety of opinion here and freedom of ideas is allowed I wanted to continue the debate here. I offered that some would come over here to keep the conversation going.

Simply put, if a man was dying, with moments to live and he repented of his sins, I believe his sins would be forgiven and he would be cleansed from all unrighteousness. If Jesus can't save him in those circumstances, He's not much of a savior.

One can 'believe' whatever they like, but do you 'believe' what Jesus Christ said?

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

If there are deathbed conversions then that would be in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus, and there is not ONE example of death bed conversions in the New Testament other than the thief on the cross who was saved under the Old Covenant while Jesus was still alive.

[TyronePalmer]

Wonderful testimony! I agree with you completely.

[Chateau d'If]

Why does it matter when someone obeys the Gospel? The only thing that matters is that a person does obey it.

Until the last breath, there is hope.

This is the trouble with salvation by tongues. No one in the Bible was ever commanded to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those who believe 2:38 does command a person to speak with tongues remove the gift aspect of the promise and experience.

In other words, if I can make myself speak in tongues, it's not a gift from God at all. The experience would be produced by flesh instead of His Spirit.

"The wind blows where it wants to" is what Jesus said.

Further, even if a person experiences tongues while on their deathbed, how will they be baptized? And if they are not baptized, according to Apostolics, they are still Hell bound-even though they've been baptized with God's Spirit.

It's all very convoluted.