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  #61  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:42 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

All I know is is that if my wife was raped and ended up pregnant as a result, while I would certainly respect HER wished if she decided to keep the baby to term (there would be NO negotiation about keeping it AFTER it was born -it would be gone. I wouldn't even look at it or want to know the things sex.), I would be more then happy to drive her to whoever was willing to remove it as soon as possible. I would definitely not lord over her and require her to keep a piece of the rapists DNA inside of her against her will. After all, the baby is 100% guaranteed to go to heaven as a baby, but according to many apostolics, has about a .05% chance once grown if he or she hasn't gone through the 58 steps and understand oneness in the exact way required.....

Last edited by RandyWayne; 04-12-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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  #62  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:18 AM
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
Thank you for giving me the chance to explain. I hope you do not have your mind made up by you thinking I am rationalizing by not calling certain medical procedures willful abortions.

It depends on the medical conditions a woman has in her pregnancy. Normal people do not always know what these medical conditions are. Yes, I would not call some medically beneficial procedures to be an "abortion" as most understand what abortion is generally known to be today.

Abortions as we generally understand it today to be are the procedures taken by medical personal to remove a fetus, thereby preventing it's chance to develop and live, even up to birth. It is a gruesome death for the fetus in most cases. In partial birth abortion, the baby is snuffed before it comes out of the birth canal. Some hail President Bush as outlawing partial birth abortions, but there are medical doctors who have come forward to say that the wording of the law leaves a loophole big enough for a mack truck to drive through and does not stop partial birth abortions. That is a totally different subject so I will move on to stay on topic here.

Some medical procedures to save the life of the mother sometimes cause the baby to die and sometimes not. I would not consider these to be abortions because the mother is not willfully trying to rid herself of her baby. These are conditions that many times rapidly develop and endanger the life of both mother and baby.
I will discuss just a couple because it is late and 7 am comes fast.


Take for instance molar pregnancies. They are technically identified as pregnancies, but bear no resemblance to a baby. Molar pregnancies have no viable genetic material that would form into a human being. The surgical removal of a molar pregnancy might be called an abortion, but in reality, there is not a viable, living human being being "aborted". This is but one example of what I call a medical procedure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydatidiform_mole

Next. Placenta Abruption.
The placenta is a structure that develops in the uterus during pregnancy to nourish the growing baby. If the placenta peels away from the inner wall of the uterus before delivery — either partially or completely — it's known as placental abruption. Placental abruption can deprive the baby of oxygen and nutrients and cause heavy bleeding in the mother.

The placenta is a structure that develops in the uterus during pregnancy to nourish the growing baby. If the placenta peels away from the inner wall of the uterus before delivery — either partially or completely — it's known as placental abruption. Placental abruption can deprive the baby of oxygen and nutrients and cause heavy bleeding in the mother.

Placental abruption often happens suddenly. Left untreated, placental abruption puts both mother and baby in jeopardy.


My niece had this serious complication. She nearly lost her life from loss of blood. She will never be able to have another child as they had to remove her uterus. They were unable to save the baby as the baby died in the womb. However, even if the baby did not die in the womb, the baby would have had to been surgically removed and put on life support because had they not done this medical procedure, both would have died. Sometimes the baby will die anyway because it is just too fragile to live outside the womb. Would you consider this medical procedure a willful abortion? Would you think that both should die?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pla...uption/DS00623

Let's look at toxemia and preeclampsia. Thousands of women and babies die or get very sick each year from a dangerous condition called preeclampsia, a life-threatening disorder that occurs only during pregnancy and the postpartum period. Preeclampsia and related disorders such as HELLP syndrome and eclampsia are most often characterized by a rapid rise in blood pressure that can lead to seizure, stroke, multiple organ failure and death of the mother and/or baby.

My co-worker had this illness. Her blood pressure at work suddenly went up to stroke levels and she nearly died. She started having seizures. They had to surgically remove her baby at 6 1/2 months gestation. The good news is that emergency intensive care for baby and mother was instituted and both were saved, although it was quite iffy for baby for a time. The baby was a fighter and 22 years ago, there were medical advances for a preemie such as this, but they were not always successful.

Would you have advocated that the baby stayed in the mother's womb so as to avoid what some might call a willful abortion because technically it is the removal of a fetus from the womb? I call this a medical procedure in the attempt to save mother or baby or both.

http://www.preeclampsia.org/
http://www.essortment.com/toxemia-51030.html

These are the type of conditions that I call medical procedures because in all cases I have seen, the mothers wanted these babies.

Lets not split hairs over my choice of wording about the fact that I do not believe in any abortion. Most abortions are willful, I do agree, but I do not classify all "beneficial medical procedures" to be willful abortions or even to be an abortion.
The 2nd procedure you mentioned above isn't abortion because according to you it actually increased the unborn's chance of survival.

The 3rd procedure you mentioned also isn't an abortion seeing as it was at least questionable as to which method would allow the unborn baby a better chance of survival.

An abortion is not a termination of pregnancy but it is a termination of pregnancy that results in a decreased (I might even characterize it as a much decreased chance of survival)
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  #63  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:02 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
The 2nd procedure you mentioned above isn't abortion because according to you it actually increased the unborn's chance of survival.
No comprehension here?? The baby died in the womb. Are the surgeons supposed to leave the dead baby in the womb and allow the mother to die also?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
The 3rd procedure you mentioned also isn't an abortion seeing as it was at least questionable as to which method would allow the unborn baby a better chance of survival.
Neither one would have survived. Would you rather have it that both the mother and child died ?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
An abortion is not a termination of pregnancy but it is a termination of pregnancy that results in a decreased (I might even characterize it as a much decreased chance of survival)


Well jfrog, you want to split hairs, but you won't tell us what you would do if you were faced with such a situation. Hmmmm...have you ever worked in a medical hospital, or seen human suffering? Your answer would help me to better understand your position in these cases.
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Last edited by AreYouReady?; 04-13-2012 at 07:19 AM.
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  #64  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:06 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
All I know is is that if my wife was raped and ended up pregnant as a result, while I would certainly respect HER wished if she decided to keep the baby to term (there would be NO negotiation about keeping it AFTER it was born -it would be gone. I wouldn't even look at it or want to know the things sex.), I would be more then happy to drive her to whoever was willing to remove it as soon as possible. I would definitely not lord over her and require her to keep a piece of the rapists DNA inside of her against her will. After all, the baby is 100% guaranteed to go to heaven as a baby, but according to many apostolics, has about a .05% chance once grown if he or she hasn't gone through the 58 steps and understand oneness in the exact way required.....
Randy, I hope that your wife or any woman never has to go through rape or face the decisions she would have to make as an added consequence of that rape.
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  #65  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:10 AM
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
Well jfrog, you want to split hairs, but you won't tell us what you would do if you were faced with such a situation. Apparently, you have never worked in a medical hospital, nor seen human suffering?
Which situation do you want me to give my personal thoughts about?
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  #66  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:19 AM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

This is evidently a very emotional subject for a lot of people.

After much prayer last night I still stand where I stand. Abortion on demand does not sit well with me at all but the complicated screening to decide who is worthy of necessary treatment and who is not... Well I'm just not sure how all that works out.

We see PIH, preeclampsia, HELLP, DIC, Hourglass membranes, P. Previa with hemmorhage, Abruption, and mothers with newly diagnosed cancers that need treatment, etc. enough that I don't see this stuff as some kind of imaginary scenario but as something that is real and could happen to my sister, daughter, daughter in law.

So here is another question for you all. If a baby has to be taken from the womb early do you then believe that we are obligated to use every medical intervention now available to save it?

Many of these babies top a million dollars in hospital expenses and are very damaged when they do survive...So...Is it OK to let them die a natural death?

For people who say we believe that to die is gain I find that many of us are avoiding death with all we have. Made what Randy said at the end of his post kind of real... babies go to heaven... no chance of mistakes... the rest of us on the other hand seem to have to have a lot of stuff right to do the same.
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  #67  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:20 AM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Which situation do you want me to give my personal thoughts about?
Pick one frog.
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  #68  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:23 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Which situation do you want me to give my personal thoughts about?
You can't figure that out either?
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  #69  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:50 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
This is evidently a very emotional subject for a lot of people.

After much prayer last night I still stand where I stand. Abortion on demand does not sit well with me at all but the complicated screening to decide who is worthy of necessary treatment and who is not... Well I'm just not sure how all that works out.

We see PIH, preeclampsia, HELLP, DIC, Hourglass membranes, P. Previa with hemmorhage, Abruption, and mothers with newly diagnosed cancers that need treatment, etc. enough that I don't see this stuff as some kind of imaginary scenario but as something that is real and could happen to my sister, daughter, daughter in law.

So here is another question for you all. If a baby has to be taken from the womb early do you then believe that we are obligated to use every medical intervention now available to save it?
T2W, you are treading on dangerous ground here. Perhaps Froggy will not look at upon this question as the baby taken from the womb. He seems to look at it as a termination of pregnancy, therefore..abortion. Never mind the circumstances.
But let's wait to see if he clarifies his position



Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
Many of these babies top a million dollars in hospital expenses and are very damaged when they do survive...So...Is it OK to let them die a natural death?
They should be given every chance to survive imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus2woman View Post
For people who say we believe that to die is gain I find that many of us are avoiding death with all we have. Made what Randy said at the end of his post kind of real... babies go to heaven... no chance of mistakes... the rest of us on the other hand seem to have to have a lot of stuff right to do the same.
T2W, you do have a point here. Most of us go to the doctor because we don't want any medical condition to get out of hand, therefore the possibility of death. Would anybody expect a mother to die because she develops something as dangerous ad DIC, preeclampsia or any of the above you mentioned? Then to take these situations and call it an abortion because the definition of the term is to terminate pregnancy. frog is trying to find some loophole in my stance because I made a statement that I do not approve of ANY abortion. He wants to use medical emergencies as a point to blow apart my statement by pointing out that technically removing a baby from the mother's womb is abortion and that I approve of that condition of "abortion".

But let's wait and see if frog will clarify his intent on this particular subject.

Froggy says all abortions are willful abortions. I consider willful abortions to be abortion upon demand...simply because the mother, father or both do not want to disrupt their life with a baby. Perhaps he will call me a hypocrite for not considering these medical procedures to be a willful abortion because of the desire to save the mother's life. These types of termination of pregnancy will happen either by medical procedures or by death and are not willful.
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  #70  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:05 AM
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Re: Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

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Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post
You can't figure that out either?
You would get further if you changed your tone a little...
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