Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

All this talk about people deciding when a fetus becomes a human is just so much blabber... Since we don't make humans what we think is irrelevant. God either makes a human when egg meets sperm or he makes one when it breathes it's first breath, we may never know which one but most of us seem to believe it is at conception. I just can't fathom a God who says "Now that you have wonderful medical interventions that can most likely save a baby born at 24 weeks it becomes human then'. Or 'Well... yes, fetuses become more attractive to adult humans at about 18 weeks gestation so it is then they will become human'- Pish-posh. In less developed countries any baby born before 35 weeks is at serious risk of death simply from prematurity.

So with those thoughts in mind I agree with those who believe a fetus is a person at conception. And no I don't have any trouble identifying a cell mass as human. It contains every particle of DNA necessary to become a full person and will if not interrupted.

I simply believe that there are times when a woman's right to live or her right to not be victimized trumps a fetuses right to live. I don't try to fool myself into believing that it is not really 'a person' that is being killed as there is nothing else it would have been if not killed. I still believe that there are times when it may be killed and God would not disagree. I do not believe God sees death the same way we do as evidenced by the fact that 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. That is 20% God could save if he chose.

And I do not only support removing a fetus when it would have a better chance of life outside the womb. For certain reasons I believe it is a woman's right to have a fetus removed if it will for 100% certain die.

I strongly believe that we should set standards for what trumps the life of an unborn and we should give it the weight that any such terrible thing deserves, not treat is like another day at the office. Abortion on demand is horrible and should be repealed. Trying to justify by saying it's too hard to know who is a candidate is just hot real... We insert ourselves into all kinds of other medical decisions and make people get extensive documentation including psychiatric evaluation and serious medical screening before such simple things as weight loss surgery or other controversial procedures.There is no reason it could not be done for elective TOP when an emergent situation is not presenting.

We need to bust the myth that it won't work or it's an all or nothing deal where there will either be no elective TOP ever for anyone anywhere or there will be at will abortion to the tune of millions a year. It is this attitude and stonewalling that has kept Christians from making any legal headway because most people are not crazy enough to think for one minute that they would let their wives, mothers, sisters, aunts. cousins, or friends die carrying a baby that can not live, or make a child carry a child of rape or incest or any of the other reasonable reasons for terminating a pregnancy.

So it is not just a political position while fetuses are killed for reasons as simple as 'this isn't a good time, I have another semester in college', 'we didn't want a pregnancy until after the big wedding'... 'my dress won't fit if I'm pregnant', 'My husband and I only wanted two kids, three is too many' or any of the other really lame reasons I've heard over the years. We have some patient that have had six... count 'em SIX terminations... 'the pill makes me nauseous'... 'I don't like using condoms' ... 'he refuses to wear a condom'...

Time for reality or bust... so far IMO the Church has chosen bust.

Here's a few simple facts:
God has never said when a fetus becomes human. He's never said it's at conception. He's never said it's at first breath. He's never even said it's not somewhere in between.

God has said it's wrong to murder but nowhere is it written that abortion equates to murder. God has never even said it's wrong to abort an unborn. To sum it all up, the scriptures and God himself are both totally silent when it comes to the issue of abortion.

2ndly, my position has nothing to do with moving the goal posts for when a fetus becomes human. Medical advancements that can allow a fetus to leave the womb early and still survive don't mean I need to start classifying that fetus as a human just because we found a way to let it leave the womb. It's still a fetus in this case, it's just a fetus living outside the womb. It will still become a human at the same developmental milestones as a fetus living inside the womb.

[Hoovie]

Herein lies the greatest hypocrisy...

In criminal and civil murder cases of a pregnant woman, there is quite often a second murder charge for the unborn child. (Shucks, killing a pregnant deer out of season gets you two fines in Missouri!)
Yet, at will, and almost without reason, an abortion can be done in any trimester.
The difference between the protected child and the unprotected child?

One is "wanted" and one is not. How warped and sick is that?

Do I think capital murder charges should be brought against the perps? Yes indeed. Their cover is flimsy and hypocritical.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So you admit to hypocrisy? A "zygote" as you call it...will eventually develop into a human if you leave it alone.

But for the record, it is no longer a zygote by the time it implants itself into the uterus.

What hypocrisy are you talking about? Saying a zygote will become a fetus which will then become a human being is not contradictory to my stated position.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Splitting hairs again.

yes, it can. What would it turn into if left in the womb to grow? A flying pig?

The embryo has all the human DNA and genetics of it's parents.

I am amused at the absurdity of your reasoning.

So since you deny it is a human being, it's ok to kill the embryo that has the potential of becoming a human being. Even frozen embryos have been protected by the courts.

..And it was said that black people were only 2/3 human or such nonsense as that.. so it was ok for the master's to work them, beat them and do anything they wanted to do.

Hmmm....you never know if governments somewhere in the world may pass a law declaring you are not a human being....

...Until you can admit that calling something a potential human being is saying that it has the potential to become a human being which implies that it is not currently a human being I don't know how else to respond to this.

By the way you further make my case when you say above that the fetus turns into a human being. If a fetus is turning into a human being then it had to be something else before or else there is no transformation, no turning into.

[Hoovie]

No scriptures on abortion? How about life for life?

Exodus 21:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

No scriptures on abortion? How about life for life?

Exodus 21:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

That's a great scripture for showing that God didn't count killing an unborn child as murder! Yes it was wrong and reprehensible if someone killed another man's wife unborn but it doesn't carry the same old testament punishments as murder.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

That's a great scripture for showing that God didn't count killing an unborn child as murder! Yes it was wrong and reprehensible if someone killed another man's wife unborn but it doesn't carry the same old testament punishments as murder.

I think it does just that, though.

It is speaking of the woman going into labor prematurely and a live birth - not miscarriage! The Hebrew word for miscarriage is not used in this text but the word for normal live child birth. Therefore, if the fighting only caused the woman to go into labor early, but there was no injury, they agree on a penalty. If the child or mother is hurt or dies it's limb for limb, and life for life.


http://www.abort73.com/abortion/exodus_2122_25/

The Premature live childbirth view of Exodus 21:22-25 does not allow for abortion but defines abortion as murder punishable by death. The text is interpreted to mean, if a woman is accidently struck when two men are fighting and she gives birth prematurely but no injury is sustained by either her or her baby, then the courts shall fine the man who injured the woman and payment shall be made to the husband. But if either the woman or the baby is injured or killed, the law of eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and life for life will be enforced.

This view is the best view for reasons listed below.

-The normal Hebrew word for miscarriage is not used in this text but the word for normal live child birth, see Gen. 25:26; 38:28-30.

-Moses knew the normal word for miscarriage for he used it both before and after this text, but he did not use it here which tells us he did not have a miscarriage in mind but premature live birth (see Gen. 31:38; Ex. 23:26; Job 2:10).

-The word “injury” both in vss. 22-23 is indefinite in that it does not designate either the mother or the child but is left indefinite so that it applies to both mother and child.

-The fact that this is the only place in all of the Bible where the death penalty is required for accidental death is significant. It shows us the value God places on both mothers and their unborn children. The death of either the mother or her child by accident would bring with it the death penalty!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I think it does just that, though.

It is speaking of the woman going into labor prematurely and a live birth - not miscarriage! The Hebrew word for miscarriage is not used in this text but the word for normal live child birth. Therefore, if the fighting only caused the woman to go into labor early, but there was no injury, they agree on a penalty. If the child or mother is hurt or dies it's limb for limb, and life for life.


http://www.abort73.com/abortion/exodus_2122_25/

The Premature live childbirth view of Exodus 21:22-25 does not allow for abortion but defines abortion as murder punishable by death. The text is interpreted to mean, if a woman is accidently struck when two men are fighting and she gives birth prematurely but no injury is sustained by either her or her baby, then the courts shall fine the man who injured the woman and payment shall be made to the husband. But if either the woman or the baby is injured or killed, the law of eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and life for life will be enforced.

This view is the best view for reasons listed below.

-The normal Hebrew word for miscarriage is not used in this text but the word for normal live child birth, see Gen. 25:26; 38:28-30.

-Moses knew the normal word for miscarriage for he used it both before and after this text, but he did not use it here which tells us he did not have a miscarriage in mind but premature live birth (see Gen. 31:38; Ex. 23:26; Job 2:10).

-The word “injury” both in vss. 22-23 is indefinite in that it does not designate either the mother or the child but is left indefinite so that it applies to both mother and child.

-The fact that this is the only place in all of the Bible where the death penalty is required for accidental death is significant. It shows us the value God places on both mothers and their unborn children. The death of either the mother or her child by accident would bring with it the death penalty!

I suppose it depends on ones interpretation of that verse.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

What hypocrisy are you talking about? Saying a zygote will become a fetus which will then become a human being is not contradictory to my stated position.

I had a whole rather lengthy paragraph typed out, but I just realized that you are deeply ingrained in your delusion and nothing I can ever say will dispel that delusion.

You are a willfully ignorant person in that you think because the word "abortion" is not in the Bible, it isn't wrong to inhibit the growth of human life or cutting it off entirely.

God does talk about "oppressors" of people who cannot help themselves...the poor, the widow, the fatherless of the orphans. Your stated position is clearly of oppression of the helpless in a place called the womb, which should be the most safest place for a child to be. God does say He will judge the oppressor.

However, you are in no position to point out anybody else's hypocrisy of any sort until you build some substance to your glass house.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by jfrog

...Until you can admit that calling something a potential human being is saying that it has the potential to become a human being which implies that it is not currently a human being I don't know how else to respond to this.

By the way you further make my case when you say above that the fetus turns into a human being. If a fetus is turning into a human being then it had to be something else before or else there is no transformation, no turning into.

What else could it possibly turn into frog? Until I can admit a potential human is implying that it is not a human being? Now that is just some crazy stuff. It is just granted scientific knowledge that the fertilized egg will become a human being if not interfered with and the fact is that people like you that want to inhibit or stop that process is just sick. I will admit that you have a geranium growing in your cranium. That's what I will admit.

John the Baptist lept for joy in Elisabeth's womb. The "potential human being" developed into a human being right there in the womb. But had Elisabeth thought the way you do, John would have been ripped right out from her womb and been called a fetus as if it was a blob of tissue. You are trying to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when you want to twist words around to make it come out like a fetus is just a blob of nothing until it is closer to birth. At 12 gestational weeks a fetus has turned into a human being because it has all it's organs, brain, heart, kidneys, legs, arms, toes, fingers and it moves, kicks and all that is left to progress is it's growth to a normal size. It is only about 3 inches long, but it is a living, viable human being. It stopped being a "potential" human being after it's heart started beating. That means the "potential" to be a human being lasted all of 21 days after conception when blood started flowing through it's circulatory system. Life is in the blood, says God.

You will never get any woman who has been pregnant to admit that the movement and kicking she felt during her pregnancy was just a blob of tissue growing in her belly. Most pregnant women who love the life within think of it as a baby, a human being.

Ah...but I see your wicked stance that it is not human until it comes out of the womb...and even if it comes early, it still is not human. Well...that is just garbage.