Pastors

[Michael The Disciple]

I guess I see "Church" different. Paul describes a real New Testament Church as one that has the truth.

15 But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim 3:15

See? A Church group is not recognized just because it has a building to meet in with a name over the door. Rather it is recognized because it is the pillar and ground of the truth. When false doctrine is being taught nothing says we are to compromise with it. Just because a Pastor says he is one means little if he is not moving in Gods agenda.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I would think most if not all Pastors do what they do because they love God and love people. I would think their desire would be to create a space where the family of God can assemble and worship, where those who are sick, oppressed and hurting can come and be filled and healed, a place where those who are heartbroken can be encouraged to press on.

Maybe not everyone needs a place like this, maybe there are those who do.

I would think it would be more about being a servant then being in authority. What you -would- want to have authority over is sin, sickness, oppression, depression, and anything that would try to come against the children of God.

This is a good thought Amanah. And this is a good thing ...if most, if not all pastors practiced this ideal.

I think where we cross in our thought process about Pastors is that there are areas in this nation ..where a pastor is all of the things you mention above.

But in some places, it is more of an authoritative hierarchy thing than it is about serving God, ministering to people or having authority over sin.

In some places, some pastors claim authority over your very life and not over sin, sickness, oppression etc that come against the children of God. Some pastors want to run your household, your family, your life. This is why I want to know where the boundaries are scripturally. Some pastors overstep their boundaries when it comes to a saint's life and home.

What man would want another man to come into his home from the pulpit and make decisions about their home life, financial, bedroom? No man should allow it. Yet there are pastors who will take that authority over a man and his family. It happens more often than we would like to think. And I've seen it happen to many people in my area.

My neighbor's pastor decided what health care a man's wife should receive when she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Her husband was not included in that decision. The pastor claimed that authority and they would have been looked upon as rebellious had they not 'obeyed'.

It is this kind of meddling that make people leave churches. These people want to serve and worship God, but cannot and should not tolerate interference unless there is abuse or laws are broken. In that case, intervention is needed.

The bible says God, Christ, man, woman. So why do some pastor's insert themselves into the equation?

In these cases, I would think it is scripturally acceptable for people to remove themselves from an intruding and meddling church leadership and worship Christ with others from without the camp if there are no other remedies.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I guess I see "Church" different. Paul describes a real New Testament Church as one that has the truth.

15 But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Tim 3:15

See? A Church group is not recognized just because it has a building to meet in with a name over the door. Rather it is recognized because it is the pillar and ground of the truth. When false doctrine is being taught nothing says we are to compromise with it. Just because a Pastor says he is one means little if he is not moving in Gods agenda.

This is my thoughts. Yet, I have heard over and over that each believer must have a pastor to be an authority over them.

So...I just want to know what scriptures apply to a pastor's duties, authority etc. What are the boundaries to submission?

I have not been able to get a reasonable answer yet.

[Praxeas]

ISBE

pas´tẽr (רעה, rō‛eh; ποιμήν, poimḗn; literally, a helper, or feeder of the sheep (the King James Version Jer_2:8; Jer_3:15; Jer_10:21; Jer_12:10; Jer_17:16; Jer_22:22; Jer_23:1, Jer_23:2, and in Eph_4:11, the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American))): Besides the literal sense the word has now a figurative meaning and refers to the minister appointed over a congregation. This latter meaning is recognized in the translation of the King James Version. See MINISTRY.

The court of elders had no president or permanent chairman. There was a two-fold not a threefold ministry. During the 3rd century, rising into notice by way of geographical distribution rather than in definite chronological order, this twofold congregational ministry became threefold in the sense that one man was placed at the head of each community with the title of pastor or bishop (the titles are interchangeable as late as the 4th century at least). In the early centuries those local churches, thus organized, while they never lacked the sense that they all belonged to one body, were independent self-governing communities preserving relations to each other, not by any political organization embracing them all, but by fraternal fellowship through visits of deputies, interchange of letters, and in some indefinite way giving and receiving assistance in the selection and setting apart of pastors.

III. Threefold Congregational Ministry.
During the 2nd century the ministry was subject to a change. The ruling body of office-bearers in every congregation received a permanent president, who was called the pastor or bishop, the latter term being the commoner. The change came gradually. It provoked no strong opposition. By the beginning of the 3rd century it was everywhere accepted.

[AreYouReady?]

For the record. I am not anti-pastor. I've just seen gross pastoral abuse in my area.

While I welcome all thoughts and posts, I wish some pastors would answer. I promise that I will not revile you if you post how you pastor your congregation.

I would just like to learn the way it is supposed to be scripturally and not people just making up rules as they go.

[BeenThinkin]

Don't know about scriptures for all of this but, ..... flush the toilet that some dear saint didn't flush, carry out the trash, cut off the lights, lock the doors, and oh, yes! love everyone, even the non-flushers!

Been Thinkin

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Can anybody give a scriptural description of a Pastor's duties? Do they have scriptural preeminence in a church body?

I sincerely would like to know what the scriptures say on this matter.

First, the word means 'shepherd'. It is not a title of rank or position since Jesus forbad His followers from receiving, giving, or recognising religious titles amongst themselves. A shepherd's job is to take care of sheep - to feed them and guide them into 'green pastures' so they can be nourished.

Second, there is no 'single pastor of a church' position in Scripture, unless we count Jesus, the 'Chief Pastor', who alone is Head of the church. There are several terms in Scripture used interchangeably - elder, bishop, etc. Every church is to have elderS (plural) - that is the goal of apostolic church planting, to establish a body of believers (mostly new converts) through evangelistic preaching of the word, to teach them the fundamentals of the doctrine of Christ, to encourage them in the faith, etc - in other words, to parent them until they are mature. The local church is mature when elders can be ordained to carry on the work of the apostolic church planter who then (following Paul's example) moves on to the next mission field. The church planter (apostle) does not then 'cut the ties that bind' of the established church, but takes less and less direct oversight of it, that duty belonging to the elders ('bishops' or overseers).

That duty includes being examples to the rest of the believers in godliness, faith, purity of doctrine, purity of lifestyle, righteous deeds, etc. They are responsible for teaching the faithful, both corporately (the whole church) and one-on-one (as Paul did, teaching 'from house to house', always ready to teach anyone and everyone who desired to learn). Thus, visitation is a duty of the elders/bishops of the church. They are accountable for the spiritual condition of the members of the Body, therefore they must take measures to KNOW that condition.

Paul's instructions to timothy are a good starting point for the duties of a pastor/bishop/elder/overseer in the church.

It should be noted that 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/teacher' seem to be descriptive of functions, not offices, whereas elder/bishop and deacon seem to be more along the lines of offices.

God ordains apostles. God ordains prophets. It stands to reason God ordains evangelists and pastor/teachers as well, whereas bishops/overseers/elders are ordained by the church, either via the apostle or his delegate during the time of initial oversight, or by the elders (presbytery) once the church is fully functioning.

And just as a church may have several apostles (a church planting missionary team, for example), several prophets, etc - it may also have several pastors (those who teach and 'feed' the church, elders who have the service of teaching the Body, ie 'teaching elders').

All of this can be seen from Jesus' examples, His commands and teachings to the original Twelve, the book of Acts, and Paul's letters. We also see some of this in Hebrews and John's letters as well.

[AreYouReady?]

Ha ha ha.

Pastors should not have to clean up after people, but all business owners cut off lights and lock doors.

[Amanah]

AYR I know some of what you are talking about. I have, in the past, known UC Churches that were very authoritarian and controlling in the extreme. I have also seen that form of church rule fall by the wayside, at least in my area. I understand what you are saying, there are some forms of spiritual abuse that people should not subject themselves to.

I want the report to be fair and balanced as they say though. I want the people reading these boards to understand that there are many good Churches and Pastors inside and outside of the UPCI.

[bbyrd009]

Amen.

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

This is my thoughts. Yet, I have heard over and over that each believer must have a pastor to be an authority over them.

So...I just want to know what scriptures apply to a pastor's duties, authority etc. What are the boundaries to submission?

I have not been able to get a reasonable answer yet.

Gotta like BT's! Otherwise, I could prolly find you some more platitudes?