Pastors

[bbyrd009]

Ones pastor is obviously, according to Scripture,
to SERVE THEM. Are you serving your pastor?
What is wrong with this picture?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Amanah

AYR I know some of what you are talking about. I have, in the past, known UC Churches that were very authoritarian and controlling in the extreme. I have also seen that form of church rule fall by the wayside, at least in my area. I understand what you are saying, there are some forms of spiritual abuse that people should not subject themselves to.

I want the report to be fair and balanced as they say though. I want the people reading these boards to understand that there are many good Churches and Pastors inside and outside of the UPCI.

I agree Amanah. It's just that for someone who lives in an area that does not have many pentecostal churches and the ones that are here are controlled by a few families. Grandfathers, Fathers, sons, grandsons and nephews all spread out in little towns for 50 miles in all directions. I've seen dueling churches fighting over saint's leaving one church and going to another. I've heard dirty things said about saints who could not tolerate meddling and tried to worship in another assembly, but the telephone rings to the other churches faster than Sunday morning worship arrives. How does this glorify God?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have not seen the other side of a loving pastor who gently feed and guide the sheep. Most of what I have seen is fear-mongering hellfire preaching (which has it's place through the unction of the Holy Ghost at times) of eternal damnation if you don't do what the pastor says. Oh but some of what I've seen done to saints is not fit to post on these forums.

I really, really want to see that other side of the coin here. It would motivate me to return to be a part of the assemblies. But...I won't return to spiritually abusive churches. And the verbal attacks from certain saints still within the organized church system have not stopped even after 20 years, nor do the pastors correct them.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Esaias

First, the word means 'shepherd'. It is not a title of rank or position since Jesus forbad His followers from receiving, giving, or recognising religious titles amongst themselves. A shepherd's job is to take care of sheep - to feed them and guide them into 'green pastures' so they can be nourished.

This is what I have been reading and praying about. I see in the gospels what Jesus himself said, but I see how different the structure is when I get among an assembly. It doesn't even remotely resemble what Christ taught.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Second, there is no 'single pastor of a church' position in Scripture, unless we count Jesus, the 'Chief Pastor', who alone is Head of the church. There are several terms in Scripture used interchangeably - elder, bishop, etc. Every church is to have elderS (plural) - that is the goal of apostolic church planting, to establish a body of believers (mostly new converts) through evangelistic preaching of the word, to teach them the fundamentals of the doctrine of Christ, to encourage them in the faith, etc - in other words, to parent them until they are mature. The local church is mature when elders can be ordained to carry on the work of the apostolic church planter who then (following Paul's example) moves on to the next mission field. The church planter (apostle) does not then 'cut the ties that bind' of the established church, but takes less and less direct oversight of it, that duty belonging to the elders ('bishops' or overseers).

That duty includes being examples to the rest of the believers in godliness, faith, purity of doctrine, purity of lifestyle, righteous deeds, etc. They are responsible for teaching the faithful, both corporately (the whole church) and one-on-one (as Paul did, teaching 'from house to house', always ready to teach anyone and everyone who desired to learn). Thus, visitation is a duty of the elders/bishops of the church. They are accountable for the spiritual condition of the members of the Body, therefore they must take measures to KNOW that condition.

Paul's instructions to timothy are a good starting point for the duties of a pastor/bishop/elder/overseer in the church.

It should be noted that 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/teacher' seem to be descriptive of functions, not offices, whereas elder/bishop and deacon seem to be more along the lines of offices.

God ordains apostles. God ordains prophets. It stands to reason God ordains evangelists and pastor/teachers as well, whereas bishops/overseers/elders are ordained by the church, either via the apostle or his delegate during the time of initial oversight, or by the elders (presbytery) once the church is fully functioning.

And just as a church may have several apostles (a church planting missionary team, for example), several prophets, etc - it may also have several pastors (those who teach and 'feed' the church, elders who have the service of teaching the Body, ie 'teaching elders').

All of this can be seen from Jesus' examples, His commands and teachings to the original Twelve, the book of Acts, and Paul's letters. We also see some of this in Hebrews and John's letters as well.

This is good teaching. So would you say that pastors and teachers have the same duties? Or is everybody supposed to be intertwined for the perfecting of the church? Not one should be revered over another or over a saint?

Now many ministers (in this area) will not recognize another minister who has not gone through their ranks/bible school or been ordained by man. I know people who study the word and live by the word, yet they hardly get a nod from church 'leadership' in this area to minister to the people. But I noticed that the grandson of a minister around here just graduated from high school and he has the title of 'Reverend' in front of his name.

I just don't understand it.

[The Lemon]

First I want to apologize for claiming that the system is "broken"...I was wrong for saying that. That said, I will stand by my opinion that the professional business type model of church as we know it here in America is a major part of the abuse in ministry in my opinion and in my brief experience.

There are MANY good annointed and God called Pastors out there...I believe my current pastor is one of them. I have seen many start out to do a great work and God was confirming that in their ministry...but somewhere down the road they got off track, and there are times where the pressures of sustaining the building etc., take a toll on a pastor and can potentially burn them out...I have seen this first hand.

In my own life, I remember when I had the opportunity to sell Life Insurance through the Hartford...it was a commission only job, which means I do not get paid unless I sell policies. My future boss used the spin that we were helping people protect their mortgages if their spouses dies by selling these Universal Life policies. Bottom line....when I looked down the road I could easily see how my motivation to "help" could easily be turned into my motivation to survive, should I go a month or more without a paycheck.

When finances are tight....survival mode tends to kick in and the motivation to help out of the kindness of heart can quickly be turned to "You are robbing God". The solution, in my opinion, is go get a regular job, and minister out of a heart that cares and don't make a creer out of pastoring. The saints will give honor to whom honor is due, and I believe they will give money and time.

When I was coming up in ministry I was always taught that it was a priviledge and an honor to serve and be on the "platform". Also, I should NEVER expect payment for ministry, but count it a blessing to be able to preach and teach....it worked for all the other ministries...we never got "paid"...but funny how in the grand scheme of things, that is not how it worked if you were the pastor.

I see the argument from both sides and both sides make very good points.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

First I want to apologize for claiming that the system is "broken"...I was wrong for saying that. That said, I will stand by my opinion that the professional business type model of church as we know it here in America is a major part of the abuse in ministry in my opinion and in my brief experience.

There are MANY good annointed and God called Pastors out there...I believe my current pastor is one of them. I have seen many start out to do a great work and God was confirming that in their ministry...but somewhere down the road they got off track, and there are times where the pressures of sustaining the building etc., take a toll on a pastor and can potentially burn them out...I have seen this first hand.

In my own life, I remember when I had the opportunity to sell Life Insurance through the Hartford...it was a commission only job, which means I do not get paid unless I sell policies. My future boss used the spin that we were helping people protect their mortgages if their spouses dies by selling these Universal Life policies. Bottom line....when I looked down the road I could easily see how my motivation to "help" could easily be turned into my motivation to survive, should I go a month or more without a paycheck.

When finances are tight....survival mode tends to kick in and the motivation to help out of the kindness of heart can quickly be turned to "You are robbing God". The solution, in my opinion, is go get a regular job, and minister out of a heart that cares and don't make a creer out of pastoring. The saints will give honor to whom honor is due, and I believe they will give money and time.

When I was coming up in ministry I was always taught that it was a priviledge and an honor to serve and be on the "platform". Also, I should NEVER expect payment for ministry, but count it a blessing to be able to preach and teach....it worked for all the other ministries...we never got "paid"...but funny how in the grand scheme of things, that is not how it worked if you were the pastor.

I see the argument from both sides and both sides make very good points.

Wow, post of the day! Well said, Lemon.......

[bbyrd009]

Nice, Esaias.
The system is broken.
Note the borders; this is God's
yardstick for us.
Doesn't mean great pastors don't come out of it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So would you say that pastors and teachers have the same duties? Or is everybody supposed to be intertwined for the perfecting of the church? Not one should be revered over another or over a saint?

I think the '5-fold ministry gifts' should actually be '4-fold', as I understand 'pastors and teachers' to be a single compound term rather two distinct ministries. Apostle means 'sent forth', prophet means 'one who speaks by inspiration to reveal God's will', evangelist means 'one who proclaims good news', and pastor means 'one who tends sheep'... obviously pastor (shepherd) must be metaphorical - a person whose ministry to the church is likened to the service a shepherd renders to a flock of sheep, ie feeding and leading the flock to continued nourishment. And 'feeding' when referring to the church must be metaphorical also, for a pastor's job is not to serve dinner literally but to 'feed' the people of God morally, intellectually, and spiritually by providing doctrine and example. Thus I conclude 'pastor' and 'teacher' are essentially the same ministry.

I would also notice there is much overlap between all these things. An apostle functions as an evangelist in preaching the gospel to the local population and persuading them to become followers of Christ. An evangelist functions much like a prophet in speaking the Word of God to people, and who would deny that apostolic preaching ought to be inspired by the Spirit rather than by a purchased collection of 'sermon notes' downloaded from the internet or found in a book? And a teacher who leads the people of God to spiritual meat and sustenance and who provides guidance to the church (shepherding) functions much like a prophet, evangelist, apostle, etc.

IN OTHER WORDS, I do not find 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/teacher' to be SEPARATE OFFICES. In Acts some of Paul's companions were referred to as apostles, and then later referred to as prophets. I think of those terms as generic terms describing a person's ministry or function in the Body, they describe how God uses them to build up the church. Notice, there are 4 (or 5, depending how you count them) gifts. But there is another, larger listing of gifts in 1 Cor. And yet another (different) list in Romans. 'Helps, governments' etc are listed among them - this seems 'pastoral' to me. EVERYONE is to be used by the Spirit as He directs.

Spiritual gifts are not 'positions', as far as I can tell from looking at Scripture.

As for one being revered over another, Paul explicitly teaches against that in 1 Cor 12-14, and teaches us to guard against not only 'despising' someone else but also against being envious towards someone else, in regard to what ministry the Spirit has placed them in the Body.

As for overseers (bishops, elders), yes they should be honoured. The church is a divine evolution of ancient Israelite culture (itself largely divine in origin via the Old Covenant). And in ancient Israel 'elders' were honoured and respected. The church likewise has 'elders', and it behooved us to respect our elders. We should give honour to whom it is due. Those who labour in the Word for the building of the church should also be honoured.

But looking at the apostolic examples in Scripture, those who 'labour in the Word' do FAR more than just a sermon on Sunday and a sermon on Wednesday, and write the checks for the mortgage payment on the building.

Now many ministers (in this area) will not recognize another minister who has not gone through their ranks/bible school or been ordained by man.

Seems Paul actually had similar issues in his day (see 1 Corinthians and especially 2 Corinthians). The New Testament model seems to indicate churches are under the spiritual oversight of the preacher who founded the particular church via evangelistic preaching and conversion of the lost. They 'owe' the preacher by whom they converted to Christ a certain respect and deference, especially in regards to doctrine, as it is his job to teach them doctrine. Other ministers, preachers, believers, etc from other churches cannot claim any authority over them, and (in NT days) might be looked at with suspicion (times were dangerous then), and so they might have carried letters of recommendation from churches. A preacher showing up out of the blue just claiming to be from another church is one thing, but a preacher showing up with a letter of recommendation from a known fellow church is another. Of course, NONE of this is remotely similar to the modern denominational 'licensing' nonsense.

Either GOD has 'licensed' a person to preach or He hasn't. Man's 'license' is therefore wholly unneeded one way or the other.

I know people who study the word and live by the word, yet they hardly get a nod from church 'leadership' in this area to minister to the people.

Unfortunately, not many Christians get to experience the practical reality of 1 corinthians 12-14. Which is sad, because that was the essence of the early modern-day Pentecostal revival. Used to be in many if not most Pentecostal gatherings, nobody did ANYTHING unless anointed to do so (except prayer, everybody was expected to be in prayer during the meeting). Some groups do still have such open meetings, and more people are moving towards that, but the fear of 'my gosh, if we have an open meeting there's no telling WHAT will happen!' still keeps many in bondage.

But I noticed that the grandson of a minister around here just graduated from high school and he has the title of 'Reverend' in front of his name.

I just don't understand it.

It's called human nature. People love titles.

Regardless of what Jesus said about the subject.

[AreYouReady?]

Thanks Esaias.

I do not know if you are a preacher, but if you aren't, you should be. Our churches need to know what you posted in regards to this matter.