How are/should preachers be paid

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I think that we would benefit from a balance of traditional church and the more unorthodox like home meetings, community service, etc.

"Church" is a lot like kindergarten. It really is great for someone who has never been in the presence of God or godly people before. It teaches basics. It gives one a community of believers to draw from and model things after. It encourages faithfullness and gets one started down a road to a deep relationship with God. It should spark ones hunger to know God and His word.

Just like kindergarten though...you grow out of it and mature. Then what? "Church" expects you to just happily do the same thing week after week and if you don't...you are backslidden and don't love God or his church.

You would never expect a person to enjoy kindergarten over and over and over. You expect them to grow up and move on to deeper things. Yet church doesn't support that. They want you in the pew paying your church tax(tithing) every week.

Brilliant!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I would love to know the evangelist pushing this koolaide...
It would be refreshing to take a Sunday morning and have Church at a community park, or a street service, or something....I don't know...

Well, you say you don't know; I say, whatever idea you (in the Spirit) devise is a great idea, and where God is. Take a bum to breakfast. Anything. Trust that God delights in your unique way of producing fruit. Peace.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I think that we would benefit from a balance of traditional church and the more unorthodox like home meetings, community service, etc.

"Church" is a lot like kindergarten. It really is great for someone who has never been in the presence of God or godly people before. It teaches basics. It gives one a community of believers to draw from and model things after. It encourages faithfullness and gets one started down a road to a deep relationship with God. It should spark ones hunger to know God and His word.

Just like kindergarten though...you grow out of it and mature. Then what? "Church" expects you to just happily do the same thing week after week and if you don't...you are backslidden and don't love God or his church.

You would never expect a person to enjoy kindergarten over and over and over. You expect them to grow up and move on to deeper things. Yet church doesn't support that. They want you in the pew paying your church tax(tithing) every week.

"Church" is about fellowshipping and worshiping with other believers; I don't believe you grow out of that.

My church isn't like "kindergarten." Our pastor brings meat to the table every time he preaches and people who pay attention and apply what is taught are going to continue to grow and mature.

I think it depends on what sort of church you are referring to and how much you invest into what goes on there, frankly.

And there's no "they"; the church is made up of "we." It isn't them against me. WE are a community of believers, WE fellowship and worship together, and WE share the benefits and responsibilities of that community.

People who don't learn to become part of a congregation or at least a small group or team are truly missing something from their experience. God put these concepts into place for the benefit of the saints; it was His idea, not ours. Yes, there are a lot of manmade ideas and interpretations about how those ideas are applied, but the general ideas of fellowshipping other Christians both on a friendly and spiritual level is very biblical. When done right, it edifies the saints in the local assembly and ultimately the church as a whole.

[MissBrattified]

As far as how money is handled:

As long as the financial arrangements are satisfactory to both the leadership and the congregation, I don't care how it's worked out. (As long as everything is done legally.)

The only time we even need to have an opinion is when something is handled in a way that hurts the pastor, his family, the congregation or the community. If someone's being hurt--then yes, something needs to change. Otherwise, let the local church decide how the money THEY contribute should be handled and doled out.

[The Lemon]

I appreciate Miss Bratts posts...perhaps I need to evaluate my commitment and involvement level and in prayer...makes sense to me. The most important thing to me is being right and doing right in all aspects of this life....especially those concerning my walk and relationship to God.

Some experiences do tend to skew ones vision and perception....sort of like going to the eye Doctor and finding out you need a stronger prescription to see clearly. I suppose it is a double edged sword in some ways...one one side, we need to let go of the past and let God heal old wounds...but on the other side, there can be much learned from the mistakes of the past as well...be that your own or others.

I was on staff (non-paid) of a church for fourteen years...we never ran over 100 souls and only ever hit that mark a couple times in all those years. We did outreach, door knocked, had 3-4 services a week, did community fund-raisers....it became a cycle. The love, fellowship, and family was needed and there was strength there for sure...I agree we are to assemble, and take on one anothers burdens, pray for each other etc., etc.

Having said that...in all the years the cumulative effect was that life basically revolved around the church...the building, the structure, the programs...but very little to no real community involvement off the premises...no reaching people where they really are instead of trying to drag them to the church building.

It is hard to put my finger on it, and while there are certainly many good things and folks saved from that time, it still felt like something was missing. There was a covering under the pastors leadership and truthfully no one knew anything was wrong at all...until he abruply retired, then the cat was out of the bag.....it is foolish to think that everyone who attends a congregation is all informed or on board with the financial handlings of the church and leadership...there are times where things can be very wrong within the leadership and folks on the pew are none the wiser....and IF they ever catch wind of the "wrong" it totally rocks their faith and perception of "Church" as they knew it...

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Otherwise, let the local church decide how the money THEY contribute should be handled and doled out.

So I have to ask, is that the financial model at your church?

The only experience I have with pentecostal churches is the one man rules all model. It is my understanding that this man takes at least 1/3 of every dollar given to the church no matter how much money that becomes. In larger or more affluent churches that could be millions. Indeed the pastor of my former UPC church gave a million dollars to the building fund 'out of his own money' when he'd not had another job beside overseeing that church.

The one man model I am familiar with does not stop with the 1/3 either but also allows for that same man to fully control the other 2/3. This church has no benevolent fund, food pantry, clothes closet, etc. The private school supports itself with tuition, the youth pay for their own activities with fund raisers and are even used for other money making enterprises like dipping chocolate strawberries for Valentines day that are sold for the same price as the local gourmet chocolate shops to the tune of thousands of dollars in profits. The biggest seller gets a $50 gift card, all the rest goes to the church. Balloons are sold on Mother's Day with the highest paying family winning a dozen roses and a good parking space for their mother, which usually cost them hundreds of dollars. Even the Ladies Auxiliary gives it's proceeds for bake-sales etc. to the church.

In fact most things seem to be geared to producing more money for the pastor and his family. He is more than a decade past retirement age and no longer serves in any real pastoral role but is simply a figurehead. Yet he keeps the reigns and control of the bank accounts. There is no disclosure that I am aware of, with him even doing the deposits from the offering personally. He has been known to question members if their tithe check goes missing.

So while the membership is following the principle of just leaving it up to the pastor I am not sure it's a good idea. I believe that the true 'robbing' can God come in just being content to give one's money to others and not see that the Kingdom's work is done with it. I don't think that giving money to a church that is not using it for God's purpose is any better than spending it at Walmart.

JMVHO

[samuelofisrael]

Tithing is NOT a NT obligatory APOSTOLIC directive.

"HERESY."

Really? Well, when one can PROVE from Holy Writ "tithing" is obligatory concerning the NT gentile coverts born again, baptised by ONE Spirit into ONE BODY, I'll be more than happy to listen. But it is NOT an Apostolic directive and never mentioned by the Apostle.

Oh, I know, "one cannot outgive God and God will be no man's debtor."

Absolutely true but that is not obligatory tithing demanded by the church leadership. Obligatory tithing is a "tradition" and nothing more.

"Abraham gave tithes and that was before the Law."

True. He gave a tenth willingly as a free will offering, no obligation and only ONCE as recorded in Scripture. No tithing obligation was cited.

"But Jacob gave tithes."

True again .... willngly and as a decision uncoerced.

Don't misunderstand, if a person has vowed to honor the LORD with a tenth of all his goods, so be it. No criticism by me. Please do so. But again if a person does NOT wish to give a tenth but a fifth or a twentieth, he/she is no less a person saved by the GRACE of God, bought by the Blood of the Lamb.

Many UNBiblical and foolish traditions have been created by gentile men totally unconnected with the writing and the re receiving the Sacred Text that today, the "tithing game" [as an obligation] has been, in many cases, more or less a con job.

"Giving" is the real test of a NT, APOSTOLIC Born Again man or woman, boy or girl. If the "pastor" has to hammer money out of the congregation by scare stories, UNScriptural teachings, pressure, it's a con job tho perhaps, unintended to be so. He no doubt "believes" what he is telling you. The attempt to buy off God is very common and produces another example of "works salvation" by innuendo. It is error.

"Ye MUST tithe."

Who said so? The church? What church? The First Century APOSTOLIC Church?

Wrong. That APOSTOLIC gathering [ministry] taught free will giving from the heart, not a demand, not as an "obligation" but as the outflowing of the New Heart. A Spirit wrought willingness to share with the saints the largress of those more blessed in material means. Never a, "ye must" or lose out with God.

"But how will the church be supported?"

The church will be just fine. Put it to the test. Go to the pulpit Sunday morning telling the people the truth. Tithing is NOT obligatory. Just give as the LORD puts it on your heart and we'll move on. No more tithing, just giving as the LORD leads and if we go belly up, so be it.

So who is really "trusting" the LORD? One poster said the pastor told some poor soul to pay their "tithes" and trust God for healing. Maybe it's the pastor who truely needs to trust God and let the poor soul pay for her medicine.

But traditon is too strong to allow true trust in so many gatherings. Much as the MORMON welfare system, tithing is required, obligatory, celebrated, exalted and all without a shred of Biblical support for the gentile converts.

"Do you tithe SOI?"

NO. I give as the LORD leads and as needs arise that are brought to my attention. I have never lacked food, clothing, shelter or transportation. The LORD has always permitted me to be employed and earn my daily bread. The LORD has always permitted me to remain in health and post to various forums be they Pentecostal, "reform[ing"], Baptist or whatever Independents.

"God will come down on you if you don't tithe."

Don't believe it. God loves a "cheerful GIVER," nothing said about a "tither" if based on fear, ignorance or a gruding obligation.

If your attitude is a "I gotta give a tithe" under duress and with a gruding attitude, better to keep the coin in your pocket. The Bible said, "God loves a CHEERFUL giver," not money out of the hand of folks conned into opening their pockets under pressure.

Abraham and Jacob gave WILLINGLY, not an OBLIGATION but their personal desire as their vow.

Who has it correct? The obligatory tithing system or the cheerful giver?

"Are you telling us NOT to tithe?"

No, you do as the LORD leads you and I'll do as the LORD leads me.

ONLY THE SCRIPTURES CORRECTLY EXEGETED IS THE WORD OF GOD.

[Titus2woman]

ASKING AGAIN... What is the pastor pay model at your church or any other OP church you have attended?

Examples would be:

Salary (known amount)
Salary (undisclosed or unknown amount)
Percentage of tithe
Percentage of all collections
All tithes
All collections
Don't know
Don't want to know
Can't know (secret)

And how do you feel about it?

Fair
Too little
Too much
Ridiculous

And why?

[Titus2woman]

Oh... and for the pastors I've used as examples above.

Can't know (secret) how much they are actually paid but my estimation is that it is too much and that is ridiculous. Just for the record.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Timmy

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Tim-may...........