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10-07-2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
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Originally Posted by Jay
Restoration to the body is one thing. However, I do not believe that when a sin such as this becomes public, that the man can or should continue to be in his position of authority. If I am caught with drugs on my person, I am going to be a felon which bans me from certain rights or positions of power. This is the same reason that pastors, elders (whatever their title), and others of influence of the church must be careful to never let their good names be compromised. This is so that the church may always be seen as clean, moral, pure, and honest. We should not try to hide sin, but should always do our best to ensure that sin is never allowed to tarnish the name of the God whom we represent.
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I don't disagree that a minister should be in a position of authority with just a "I'm sorry" for what I've done.
I do think that relinquishing his license and never be able to preach in a OP church again is rather harsh punishment for any sin.
Gosh, there are pastors in this region who have been caught in adultery and still pastor churches. There have been pastors who embezzled money from building funds to take their family on a disney vacation and still pastor their church. Somehow some of these indiscretions get swept under the rug, while others get thrown under the bus.
I think that if a former pastor repents, sits down and reflects upon his sin, gets adequate spiritual counseling from those who are spiritual in the church and asks God for forgiveness...at some point in time it is not unreasonable to restore some sort of ministry to him. God has mercy on those who repent of wrong doing and the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.
__________________
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
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10-07-2012, 10:49 PM
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
I am an equal opportunity hardliner when it comes to restoration to ministry / leadership positions. I have no doubt God forgives a sincere person asking forgiveness and right relationship with God can be restored quickly. That does not mean everything is the same as before in the persons life though and that what happened has no consequences.
I was upset a few years ago when a lib exUPC church Pastor was discovered to be in an extra marital relationship that had gone on for some time and it was swept under the rug when elders (Pastors of other churches he associated with) came in and told the church they needed to stand behind the pastor and forgive and forget. To essentially just act like it never happened.
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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10-07-2012, 10:54 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
On a lighter note this thread made me think about a story a friend of mine told me about something that happened when his father, a UPC minister, served on his district board and was listening to the evidence brought against a licensed pastor accused of adultery.
The woman he had the affair with was testifying to the board about her liaisons with the pastor when she recounted one of their meetings in a hotel room. She said that after they made love she turned on the tv at which point the pastor looked at his mistress and said (seriously) "Woman, turn that devil box off!!!!". Now there was a man committed to his "standards"!!!
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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10-07-2012, 11:51 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,600
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I am an equal opportunity hardliner when it comes to restoration to ministry / leadership positions. I have no doubt God forgives a sincere person asking forgiveness and right relationship with God can be restored quickly. That does not mean everything is the same as before in the persons life though and that what happened has no consequences.
I was upset a few years ago when a lib exUPC church Pastor was discovered to be in an extra marital relationship that had gone on for some time and it was swept under the rug when elders (Pastors of other churches he associated with) came in and told the church they needed to stand behind the pastor and forgive and forget. To essentially just act like it never happened.
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I don't disagree with you there at all.
It seems to always be swept under the rug and forgive and forget when it is a favorite person or a family member.
I've seen women sat down from singing in the choir because they trimmed their hair, but the pastor's daughter continued to lead the choir when she trimmed hers.
I'm only referring to those who show true repentance and humbleness of spirit.
__________________
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
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10-07-2012, 11:56 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,600
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
On a lighter note this thread made me think about a story a friend of mine told me about something that happened when his father, a UPC minister, served on his district board and was listening to the evidence brought against a licensed pastor accused of adultery.
The woman he had the affair with was testifying to the board about her liaisons with the pastor when she recounted one of their meetings in a hotel room. She said that after they made love she turned on the tv at which point the pastor looked at his mistress and said (seriously) "Woman, turn that devil box off!!!!". Now there was a man committed to his "standards"!!!
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I know a man who frequented brothels, always asking for one particular lady while living on the west coast. Afterwards, he claimed he was trying to win her to Christ. 
__________________
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
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10-08-2012, 05:30 AM
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Loving God, His Word, His Name
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 861
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Seriously, I hope none of you ever falls. I mean, according to you all, if one does, then there is no hope for restoration. I feel so sorry for some of you, who have no grace, and think yourselves so high.
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10-08-2012, 09:10 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,829
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnTraditional
Seriously, I hope none of you ever falls. I mean, according to you all, if one does, then there is no hope for restoration. I feel so sorry for some of you, who have no grace, and think yourselves so high.
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UnTraditional,
When you make statements like this, it makes me think you didn't thoroughly read posts. Perhaps you only scanned...
Restoration is possible for every repentant sinner. Both with God and in the church community. Whether a person can be restored to position isn't up to me. It's up to the local church, the person's family and the person's authorities.
Further, as I stated earlier, it isn't always in the best interest of the person who failed to be restored to a position of leadership--especially not right away. It does us good to step back, take a breath, stabilize ourselves with God and family, get our priorities straight and then later, possibly much later, see what God would have us do. And understand that if He wants us to do something that He will open the doors for us.
I realize that those who have gifts feel the driving need to express them. As a singer, musician and teacher, I can understand how painful it would be to not be able to sing, play or teach. However, I also understand that those things aren't going to get me into heaven and that they are lower in priority to my personal relationship with God and to my family relationships. If I had to pick one, it certainly wouldn't be my gifts.
I theorized for a moment and considered what I would want to happen if my own father or my pastor committed adultery (for example). I can tell you that the first thing I would want to happen would be a complete focus on the marital relationship and a setting aside of every extra-curricular, unnecessary obligation. When something like this happens, it causes trauma in the home and in the person, and you simply can't just "keep on keeping on." Not without utterly destroying yourself of your home.
There is much more to consider than simply a person's "right" to continue in ministry. Let compassion extend to considering the person's emotional, mental and spiritual health and the person's relationships--with God, family, friends and community. When trust has been violated, it takes time to heal those wounds. The idea that someone should "sit down" isn't supposed to just be about punishing them, if that's what it's about at all. It's about giving them time to recover their personal relationship with God, which has obviously gone awry, and time to recover relationships with others that matter far more than an hour in the pulpit every Sunday AM.
A minister with a family has God-given priorities that are more important than his ministry.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
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10-08-2012, 09:32 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 474
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Make the office a non paid position. Get rid of the one Pastor system too?
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Amen to the second part. A true body of elders and deacons.
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10-08-2012, 08:55 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnTraditional
Seriously, I hope none of you ever falls. I mean, according to you all, if one does, then there is no hope for restoration. I feel so sorry for some of you, who have no grace, and think yourselves so high.
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Your post is clear evidence you don't actually read the posts on a thread.
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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10-08-2012, 09:17 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
lol...related to Looney?
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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