In God's Eyes Only:

[Aquila]

Interesting Ron Paul quotes:

"The best approach is to make marriage a private matter. When we no longer believe that civilization is dependent on government expansion, regulating excesses, and a license for everything we do, we will know that civilization and the ideas of liberty are advancing." ~ Ron Paul

"Why should the government be telling you what marriage is all about? You might have one definition. I have another definition." ~ Ron Paul

"My personal opinion is government shouldn’t be involved. The whole country would be better off if individuals made those decisions and it was a private matter." ~ Ron Paul

"Licensing for social reasons reflects the intolerant person’s desire to mold other people’s behavior to their standard." ~ Ron Paul

Why should any self-respecting, conservative, personal-liberties-minded Christian go groveling before the government to get a "marriage license" when marriage is common right from the hand of God? Do we need state issued licenses to perform The Lord's Supper or water baptisms? Of course not. John Knox pointed out that NOWHERE in Scripture do we see a priest presiding over a wedding. With that, he drew the conclusion that a wedding is a private personal matter between two individuals and their families. This is why Quakers traditionally have "self-officiated" weddings wherein the couple solemnizes their own wedding before God and witnesses. No priest officiating... no government filing.

So... some of my questions still haven't been answered...

• Would you accept a couple into your church who were "spiritually married" in a "government free marriage"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

• If the couple were previously a Quaker couple, and their marriage wasn't legally filed with the state, would you require them to file their marriage with the state? Would you declare them "living in sin" or recognize them as being "married"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

[Aquila]

So... some of my questions still haven't been answered...

• Would you accept a couple into your church who were "spiritually married" in a "government free marriage"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

• If the couple were previously a Quaker couple, and their marriage wasn't legally filed with the state, would you require them to file their marriage with the state? Would you declare them "living in sin" or recognize them as being "married"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So... some of my questions still haven't been answered...

• Would you accept a couple into your church who were "spiritually married" in a "government free marriage"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

Yep. Because they are married in the same manner that has been acceptable to God & men for most of the time marriages have been taking place. I won't let a handful of decades' "convention" cast doubt on what has been fine enough for most of the history of mankind.

Originally Posted by Aquila

• If the couple were previously a Quaker couple, and their marriage wasn't legally filed with the state, would you require them to file their marriage with the state? Would you declare them "living in sin" or recognize them as being "married"? Please explain why you would or why you wouldn't.

Nope. See comments above.

[Aquila]

D4T,

Thanks for answering.

People seem to be staying away from this topic. lol

(I always pick the controversial stuff)

[Aquila]

I found this interesting. Pastor Matt Trewhella of Mercy Seat Christian Church in Wauwatosa, Wisconsin explains his view of a "biblical Christian marriage":

"Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses...

When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the marriage in the Family Bible... Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriage in their Family Bibles. So should we."

Would this be an acceptable "Christian marriage"?

[Hoovie]

I think what our government thinks and expects matters a great deal. At such time it truly becomes only a private/legal matter the government expectation and documentation would change. Until then we need to obey the law if you wish to be married.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I think what our government thinks and expects matters a great deal. At such time it truly becomes only a private/legal matter the government expectation and documentation would change. Until then we need to obey the law if you wish to be married.

I agree. However, it isn't "illegal" for a couple to declare themselves as being "married" without a state marriage license. The state would only refuse to legally "recognize" said marriage for the purpose of taxation and other government granted "benefits".

Quakers traditionally do not file with the state for a marriage certificate because it requires an "officient" and Quakers traditionall self-officiate their marriages. Another reason is their radical position on the separation of church and state. In Pennsylvania they've legalized "Self-Officiated" marriages to accomodate this tradition. Some conservative Quakers in other states have "government free marriages". Some state courts have used the "marriage certificate" in the front of a family Bible to validate a marriage in cases involving survivor claims. Some Muslims with more than one wife also have Islamic certificates of marriage, though the state doesn't "recognize" the additional unions.

Point is... while the government will only readily "recognize" licensed marriages... the absence of a "marriage license" doesn't invalidate the reality of a "marriage".

Now, if it were illegal to address your partner as your "wife" or "husband" with penalties... I would agree with you completely.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I think what our government thinks and expects matters a great deal. At such time it truly becomes only a private/legal matter the government expectation and documentation would change. Until then we need to obey the law if you wish to be married.

The law allows for common law marriage. It's the church that doesn't.

[Aquila]

The Libertarian in me wants to say that it's none of the GOVERNMENT's business. Marriage is between the individual, their God, and their love. If they desire the union... and at least two witnesses can testify to our intent to be husband and wife (parents included for a woman never married)... it's a marriage. Rather the government wants to recognize it or not.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The law allows for common law marriage. It's the church that doesn't.

Yet the church advocates "law of the land" teaching. If it's legal common law marriage... shouldn't the church accept common law marriage?

"My personal opinion is government shouldn’t be involved. The whole country would be better off if individuals made those decisions and it was a private matter." ~ Ron Paul

"The best approach is to make marriage a private matter. When we no longer believe that civilization is dependent on government expansion, regulating excesses, and a license for everything we do, we will know that civilization and the ideas of liberty are advancing." ~ Ron Paul

"As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State—literally! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given it’s unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of idolatry for me to do so." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"Both George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriage in their Family Bibles. So should we." ~ Pastor Matt Trewhella

"What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” ~ Jesus (ESV)