Death:

[MarieA27]

Sooo...you're basically saying that you believe in double judgment and some semblance of purgatory? That we will be judged and have our souls placed in our eternal (temporary) resting home once, then we are to be judged again and have our bodies placed in that eternal resting home for the final time?

What's the point of that? If we already know where we're going to be, why are we getting judged again? Just to contemplate how bad/good we lived our lives before God?

[Michael The Disciple]

Their doctrine nullifies the gospel of Jesus Christ. After all where was the GOOD NEWS when Jesus rose again from the dead three days later? According to them he was alive the whole time he was dead.

And not only was HE alive but everyone who had ever "died" in the history of mankind was already alive! Many of them living in Paradise many of them living in "Hades".

So really to them there never was a "gospel of Jesus" at least the gospel defined by the Apostles.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Luke

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Very strong scriptures against the doctrine of either soul sleep or annilationism.

Did you happen to read any particularly all of my studies? If students of scripture could understand this one thing. You cannot jump into the middle or toward the end of a topic and wind up thinking you understand it.

Example.

The things you all think are so powerful to prove your points TO ME is just like when a Trin says AHA why did Jesus pray to the Father! AHA what was that voice at Jesus baptism! AHA what does it mean "Let us make man in our image". AHA GOTCHA!

A Trin really thinks he understands the truth. They have certain select verses that if not rightly understood would make a Oneness feel foolish.

But my fellow Travellers......if you do not understand a doctrine FROM ITS FOUNDATION the scriptures you try to fit into it will be out of context with the topic as a whole.

Example again.

To me the foundation of Oneness doctrine is Duet. 6:4. Hear O Israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one.

With that as a base no scripture will be able to prove more than one who is YHWH.

It is SO MUCH the same with the doctrine of death. Just as all through the Old Testament there was never any God but YHWH neither was death ever taught as being anything other than a state of cecession of life. It was always called metaphorically "sleep".

If you START WITH THE RIGHT FOUNDATION you can reconcile the other parts of a whole to it. This in scripture is called RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.

All scripture is true. Jesus DID pray to the Father. A voice DID speak to Jesus at his baptism. Elohin DID say Let us make man in our image.

But do these scriptures prove what the unlearned want them to prove?

Of course not. Neither do the scriptures that some post which are supposed to be proving their point that people are already immortal before the resurrection.

There really is no such thing as death in their view because no one really dies!

So the scriptures they use SEEMS like it is right to them BECAUSE THEIR FOUNDATION CONCERNING THE TOPIC IS WRONG!

If ones foundation is that One God means three they will never understand the doctrine of Oneness.

If ones foundation is that man never dies he will never appreciate or understand the doctrine of the resurrection and eternal life....the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul said he was willing to be absent from his body and be present with the Lord Jesus. Lets examine the all important context of this statement he wrote.

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.
To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

[Michael The Disciple]

And furthermore concerning Pauls statement that he was willing to be absent from his body and present with the Lord:

Some more context.

Did Paul not teach others that it was at the second coming they would be with the Lord?

Let us see.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17

Paul made it clear to the Thessalonians in verse 17 when both the dead and the living will BE WITH THE LORD EVER. If he tells them THEN at that time they will be with the Lord obviously he did not teach the Corinthians that THEY would be with the Lord as soon as they died.

Jesus taught EXACTLY the same thing. After all Paul was merely a disciple, a servant minister of Jesus so he simply taught what Jesus taught.

Confirmation:

John 14:1-3

4:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Here Jesus tells us WHEN WE WILL BE WITH HIM. Does he not say that WHEN HE COMES AGAIN then at that time he will RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF?

Woops! Why are so many willing to overlook what Jesus the Lord and Savior and his Apostle both said about this matter? Being charitable because I used to do the same thing.

Problem is they "lock into" certain Biblical statements at the expense of other Biblical statements.

We must bring ALL the scriptures of a topic to the table and then "rightly divide".

[Michael The Disciple]

Saints and friends,

Let us look at yet MORE context concerning Pauls writing that he was willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8-11

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Note the word WHEREFORE in verse nine. That means the thought from verse eight is being carried over into verse nine.

As to the statement we are willing to be absent from THIS PRESENT BODY and to be present with Jesus Christ the very next Holy Spirit inspired thought Paul brought was the day of judgment!

He tied the two thoughts together!

Being present with Jesus and getting a new body and LABORING TO BE ACCEPTED BY HIM AT JUDGMENT!
Obviously if (not so dead) saints had went to be with Lord at their death in conscious bliss and happiness they would have ALREADY BEEN ACCEPTED BY HIM would they not?

And yet Paul ties the two things together. We must labor now to be ACCEPTED by Jesus Christ THEN!

WHEN?

At the judgment day.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Sooo...you're basically saying that you believe in double judgment and some semblance of purgatory?

No. Presently, those who "go to Hell" are in a place of holding until judgment. And no, it isn't a semblance of purgatory... because the doctrine of purgatory teaches that purgatory cleanses believers from lesser sins prior to entering Heaven.

That we will be judged and have our souls placed in our eternal (temporary) resting home once, then we are to be judged again and have our bodies placed in that eternal resting home for the final time?

Nope. The wicked person is only "condemned" upon death... the sentence is instituted after the final judgment.

What's the point of that? If we already know where we're going to be, why are we getting judged again? Just to contemplate how bad/good we lived our lives before God?

Have you ever known anyone who was arrested??? People are arraigned, incarcerated, and then they have to stand trial at a later date. Same principle.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Their doctrine nullifies the gospel of Jesus Christ. After all where was the GOOD NEWS when Jesus rose again from the dead three days later? According to them he was alive the whole time he was dead.

And not only was HE alive but everyone who had ever "died" in the history of mankind was already alive! Many of them living in Paradise many of them living in "Hades".

So really to them there never was a "gospel of Jesus" at least the gospel defined by the Apostles.

Not true.

[Aquila]

Michael, I've heard all the arguments for "soul sleep" and "annihilationism". It's heresy, error, sin.

I call it "Christian humanism". The reason being that atheist humanists see man as a biological machine without an eternal soul/spirit that exists apart from the body. When a person dies... it's "lights out". The biological machine is dead. Now, the advocate for Soul Sleep/Annihilationism believes in the same error. However, they believe the machine will be re-animated at the resurrection, the wicked will be vaporized and lights out. The righteous continue living. It's an entirely CARNAL position that is VOID of any acknowledgement of spirit.

I realized this after I was trying to witness to an atheistic humanist back when I leaned towards soul sleep/annihilationism. He rejected God on the premise that no loving God would send souls to a Hell. I thought the doctrine of soul sleep/annihilationism would tame God and make Him seem more presentable I guess. Well... he laughed at me and said, "Well then, what's the difference??? I believe that when I die there is nothing. You believe that when I die, there will be nothing... then God will vaporize me at the judgment... and then I am nothing again. I'd rather live free and accept my cessation of existence. Who wants to serve a God like that??? I'd rather be vaporized anyway. In the end... I'm right. You're just a religious humanist."

That haunted me. Essentially... I was a "Christian humanist".

In addition, it denies the spiritual oneness of those who have the Holy Ghost. According to Scripture we are one spirit with the Lord. He is in us (our being) and we are in Him (His being). Through Christ He has elevated us to a place wherein we are the very temple of God...living extensions of Himself. He is the Vine... we are the branches. The Vine and the Branches being... one organism. We are one spirit with Him through the Holy Spirit.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Michael, I've heard all the arguments for "soul sleep" and "annihilationism". It's heresy, error, sin.

I call it "Christian humanism". The reason being that atheist humanists see man as a biological machine without an eternal soul/spirit that exists apart from the body. When a person dies... it's "lights out". The biological machine is dead. Now, the advocate for Soul Sleep/Annihilationism believes in the same error. However, they believe the machine will be re-animated at the resurrection, the wicked will be vaporized and lights out. The righteous continue living. It's an entirely CARNAL position that is VOID of any acknowledgement of spirit.

I realized this after I was trying to witness to an atheistic humanist back when I leaned towards soul sleep/annihilationism. He rejected God on the premise that no loving God would send souls to a Hell. I thought the doctrine of soul sleep/annihilationism would tame God and make Him seem more presentable I guess. Well... he laughed at me and said, "Well then, what's the difference??? I believe that when I die there is nothing. You believe that when I die, there will be nothing... then God will vaporize me at the judgment... and then I am nothing again. I'd rather live free and accept my cessation of existence. Who wants to serve a God like that??? I'd rather be vaporized anyway. In the end... I'm right. You're just a religious humanist."

That haunted me. Essentially... I was a "Christian humanist".

In addition, it denies the spiritual oneness of those who have the Holy Ghost. According to Scripture we are one spirit with the Lord. He is in us (our being) and we are in Him (His being). Through Christ He has elevated us to a place wherein we are the very temple of God...living extensions of Himself. He is the Vine... we are the branches. The Vine and the Branches being... one organism. We are one spirit with Him through the Holy Spirit.

Only problem with your view is the abundance of scripture it rejects! And in this text box of writing all I see is how YOU feel about it whereas my posts are full of scripture.

Which one of us is the humanist?