Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by CC1

As I type this it is Sunday night 6:38 pm CST. Wondering if Jason has seen fit to attend the or one of the UPC churches he is contemplating returning to?

Or will his non action once again make this thread seem like more of a attention getter and conversation starter than something under serious consideration?

We had a good service this morning, great teaching on James 2. Came home, went to work for a while, then got off about 4. A beautiful Texas day, so I fired up the grill.

Really its not that I didn't go because the weather, I just don't know if I want to. About 3 weeks ago I was seriously considering visiting. When I posted this thread I was still considering, and even now I'm not closing the door, I just don't feel motivated to go this week, or the next. The way I feel today I'd be content to never go back even to visit.

This week neither I nor my wife mentioned anything about visiting the UPC church.

For me, its attitudes like Bro. Epley's and those who blindly amen, that remind me of the religious sub culture aspect that I don't miss. I've had a good time hashing through some things on here, and they've brought some of the differences to the forefront. I don't have a problem with those differences, but I'd be open about them to any future upc pastor, and I don't know if they could handle those views or not. As Bro. Epley shows, some of these guys are comfortable where they are, and if they really wanted the truth, they would have found it.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by seekerman

First, the building with the sign "Racine Apostolic Church" isn't the church. You've confused the romanist building system you follow with the Church.

Did you tell them that they had to have another man, such as yourself, intone certain words over them during baptism or they would go to hell? In other words, the path to heaven goes through the baptismal works of another man, such as yourself...did ya tell them that in your instructions on how they could be saved? Did you tell them they had to speak in tongues or even your righteous works on their behalf was worthless? How about telling them about the salvation requirements of hair?

Did you even mention the blood of the Lamb of God in your salvation discourse? What part does that play?

Speaking of that Romanist stuff you never have answered if you have a Roman xmas tree?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

We had a good service this morning, great teaching on James 2. Came home, went to work for a while, then got off about 4. A beautiful Texas day, so I fired up the grill.

Really its not that I didn't go because the weather, I just don't know if I want to. About 3 weeks ago I was seriously considering visiting. When I posted this thread I was still considering, and even now I'm not closing the door, I just don't feel motivated to go this week, or the next. The way I feel today I'd be content to never go back even to visit.

This week neither I nor my wife mentioned anything about visiting the UPC church.

For me, its attitudes like Bro. Epley's and those who blindly amen, that remind me of the religious sub culture aspect that I don't miss. I've had a good time hashing through some things on here, and they've brought some of the differences to the forefront. I don't have a problem with those differences, but I'd be open about them to any future upc pastor, and I don't know if they could handle those views or not. As Bro. Epley shows, some of these guys are comfortable where they are, and if they really wanted the truth, they would have found it.

We found the truth you carelessly threw away. Buy the truth and sell it not. The truth in my life is not for sale.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Speaking of that Romanist stuff you never have answered if you have a Roman xmas tree?

Also probably uses one of those pagan calendars to keep track of time!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We found the truth you carelessly threw away. Buy the truth and sell it not. The truth in my life is not for sale.

Truth was lost for 1900 years?!!
There is no record of a single group, nay, a single person prior to the early 1900's America who taught what you believe is the only way of salvation. The full package 3 step, plus outward holiness. Good thing you guys found it.....or invented it. Even the Mormons and JWs go back further than the strand of Christianity you claim is the truth, to the exclusion of all other expressions of Christianity.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We found the truth you carelessly threw away. Buy the truth and sell it not. The truth in my life is not for sale.

Your teaching that you determine the salvation of another person according to your words said over them at baptism isn't the truth. And that's just the beginning.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by webe123

Let me ask some on this board a question...what makes you so BITTER that you HATE the UPCI that much?

Bitter? I'm amazed it took nearly 30 pages for someone to say it. I'm not bitter, if I were bitter I wouldn't even consider going to visit. To say nothing of the fact that one of the biggest factors of consideration is that I miss the fellowship, because I love the people. Does that sound bitter to you? Don't confuse "I studied the Bible to see whether these things were so, and found them NOT to be so, therefore I decided to leave the fellowship" with "the UPC ruined my life, and over my dead body would I go into a UPC church." The latter attitude could be considered "bitter". Thats not my attitude, in fact I've got a more positive view about the UPC/OP churches than most who have left. I fully believe that many of the people in those churches are saved, and some of the finest Christian people in American Christianity....but I think they don't realize they are justified by faith, and spend years wondering if they are really saved or not, serving God in fear, when really they ought to be rejoicing in the grace of God and enjoying the liberty that is in Christ.

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bitter? I'm amazed it took nearly 30 pages for someone to say it. I'm not bitter, if I were bitter I wouldn't even consider going to visit. To say nothing of the fact that one of the biggest factors of consideration is that I miss the fellowship, because I love the people. Does that sound bitter to you? Don't confuse "I studied the Bible to see whether these things were so, and found them NOT to be so, therefore I decided to leave the fellowship" with "the UPC ruined my life, and over my dead body would I go into a UPC church." The latter attitude could be considered "bitter". Thats not my attitude, in fact I've got a more positive view about the UPC/OP churches than most who have left. I fully believe that many of the people in those churches are saved, and some of the finest Christian people in American Christianity....but I think they don't realize they are justified by faith, and spend years wondering if they are really saved or not, serving God in fear, when really they ought to be rejoicing in the grace of God and enjoying the liberty that is in Christ.

This. This in bold . . . This is truth. And it's not just UPC or Apostolics in general who believe it either.

[Jason B]

Bro Epley...in case you missed it:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I appreciate that you stick around. You must admit that most UCs cannot even tolerate questions, and certainly not opposition.

And yes you contend for your views, but you do so while being quite evasive with the Biblical text. I rarely see you really delve into scripture to explain the context and meaning of scripture. Right now your not dealing with the scripture. Because I acknowledged there was a pattern you say "discussion over" without even wanting to get into exegesis. You know the more we look at the scriptures, the weaker your position is. But you are honest about what you believe, and I appreciate that.

Really even though I strongly disagree with you on some things, I believe you're a brother, I just think you're going to find out that there's going to be alot more people in heaven than you expected. But you know what the great thing about grace and mercy is? All hose "bobbed hair women" and "trinitarians" and "liberals/charismatics" will be forgiving of all your condemning them, because they know you did it in ignorance. I dont doubt your sincere. But I believe you are sincerely wrong about many things you have taken a dogmatic stand on.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Its a public discussion, jump in.


Brother, I submit, that you fail to understand justification, and basic theology.

Oh I understand theology quite well. IMO the framework of protestant theology fails.

You say that a persons sins do not have to be set aside for the Holy Spirit to come upon them? Can you provide a post pentecost example of someone who was still in their sin, yet had the Holy Ghost come upon them?

you are missing the point and stuck in a certain misunderstanding. God can move upon a heart if it is toward him and has faith. That however does not mean a person has to have sins remitted for God to move opon a person. you use STILL in their sin? Why cannot God move upon a willing heart? Past sin is not the current state of the heart.

You say that a person has to have a turned heart (this is repentance) and not be at enmity with God....but you speak of that same person as still being under the penalty of sin until baptism. This is hogwash. One is either at enmity with God or at peace with God. One is either repentant or unrepentant. One is either justified or condemned. There is no middle ground, no "half-born" again.

wrong I never said HALF BORN you need to stop reading others theology in Onenes into what I have said. That is correct though they are still under a penalty of sin until baptized. Just as in Matthew 5 a person must go first if he remembers someone who has something against him. REconcile THEN come and offer his gift/sacrifice at the altar. Baptism is the place and is clear in scripture it is beig united in this death/blood and our clothing with Christ. God had accepted cornelius BEFORE Peter even showed up. Did that mean their sins washed away before Peter came? NO! You can have what God considers a just heart yet nor have partaken in his death or having received remission of sins. You ASSUME sins removed at Acts 10 . Scripture does not say that. We do see Peter commanding baptism since Tongues was the sign of God's acceptance of them and MOVED on them.

If a person believes the gospel, their eyes are opened to their sin, they repent and place their faith in God, God justifies the sinner on the basis of faith.

The gospel INCLUDES baptism. Notice how you failed to mention that. Repentance is TURNING TO GOD IN FAITH AT BAPTISM to do what he SAID he would do.

The justified sinner is now at peace with God (Romans 5:2).

No such thing as a justified sinner. Two things cannot exist at the same time. If your heart is turned you are not currently a SINNER. You have a PAST but not a CURRENT SINNER.
Yep and Baptism is the place in which JUSTIFICATION in the sense of unification with Christ occurs. SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR.

BUT according to your post a person who has "a turned heart" and "is not at enmity with God" is STILL UNDER THE PENALTY of their sins. Brother that IS condemnation. You fail to understand the Biblical doctrine of justification. Either one is dead in their sins or alive in Christ. There is no such thing as a justified lost person.

No I fail to accept protestant doctrine that fails to understand Faith in accordance with CONTEXT to receive what God promises. Baptism is the place in which a persons sins are remitted. Protestant doctrine that makes simple acceptance or mental assent "justification" when scripture NOWHERE says such. That includes Gen 15 and Romans 4 in which BOTH speak of a period of time in which a person is judged by reactions NOT A SINGLE MOMENT in time to knowledge.

Faith by it's nature is the reality of a CLEANSED the heart. IT is the reality of removing that which stands between you and GOd. Removing of PAST sins is a whole different issue. A person with a heart turned is considered RIGHTEOUS. Just as the person who comes to OFFER his sacrifice AFTER having reconciled himself to his brother and THEN comes and offers his gift. He has not recieved the blessing of offering his gift yet but his heart is righteous before GOd to come and receive God mercy. So yes there is a BIG difference between coming to God with a righteous heart and considered JUST before God and then receiving God's mercy at the appointed time.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.