Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[larrylyates]

While it is certainly true that Paul did, in fact say:

1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

It is important to bear in mind that it was the very same Apostle who said:

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1Co_12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

And we find this warning in James:
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

It is readily apparent from scripture that the office of the Pastor is not something one can simply presume to place himself in. It is a divine calling and appointment not to be sought out lightly. There are many saints in the Church who serve vital functions in the Body and often minister powerfully in the Gifts. That does not necessarily qualify them to Pastor. Those whom God calls He will qualify, for they will, if serious, be diligent to show themselves approved unto God.

That being said, I do find it sad that a given Church would have to seek beyond its own walls for qualified leadership. It is the function of the "five-fold ministry" to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

Thankfully, there is a movement in the Body of Christ that is taking Church beyond the four walls and to the people. The Saints Movement is coming and it is coming fast. Our traditional models are going to be challenged in the coming days. The result will not be well received by many. It will be a real heart check!

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

While it is certainly true that Paul did, in fact say:

1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

It is important to bear in mind that it was the very same Apostle who said:

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1Co_12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

And we find this warning in James:
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

It is readily apparent from scripture that the office of the Pastor is not something one can simply presume to place himself in. It is a divine calling and appointment not to be sought out lightly. There are many saints in the Church who serve vital functions in the Body and often minister powerfully in the Gifts. That does not necessarily qualify them to Pastor. Those whom God calls He will qualify, for they will, if serious, be diligent to show themselves approved unto God.

That being said, I do find it sad that a given Church would have to seek beyond its own walls for qualified leadership. It is the function of the "five-fold ministry" to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

Thankfully, there is a movement in the Body of Christ that is taking Church beyond the four walls and to the people. The Saints Movement is coming and it is coming fast. Our traditional models are going to be challenged in the coming days. The result will not be well received by many. It will be a real heart check!

This right here is what I have been trying to say in so many words, which was why I brought up the maturity of the saints.

My point was not that anyone could function in that office. I was really trying to communicate that if a local assembly is seeking beyond its own walls for qualified leadership (after so many years of a guy being their pastor), then what exactly has he been teaching them all these years?

Saints should be prepared for the work of the ministry (including Pastoring).

Those that should be "applying" for the pastorate should be from within the assembly. They should be tested like 1 Tim 3 says and then officially ordained if they pass the test.

[webe123]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

This right here is what I have been trying to say in so many words, which was why I brought up the maturity of the saints.

My point was not that anyone could function in that office. I was really trying to communicate that if a local assembly is seeking beyond its own walls for qualified leadership (after so many years of a guy being their pastor), then what exactly has he been teaching them all these years?

Saints should be prepared for the work of the ministry (including Pastoring).

Those that should be "applying" for the pastorate should be from within the assembly. They should be tested like 1 Tim 3 says and then officially ordained if they pass the test.

But you need to consider that not EVERY CHURCH is a mega church of thousands of people where they can choose from. A lot of smaller churches have ONE person that can pastor and most of the other people are simply saints.

You take a church of 50 people for example....in a cross section of that church, there is not going to be a whole lot to choose from that is probably going to be pastor material. Thus, churches look OUTSIDE their congregations to find someone who is qualified.

I do not see the problem with that frankly.

Not every church has numbers to choose from within the congregation. And even if they have a good number of people, how many of THOSE are going to be able to even meet the qualifications the bible gives for pastoring...let alone be able to take the hardships that come with the job?

[Tlswift2009]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Ok, I don't know much about this local assembly, but something that's puzzling to me about this scenario (and this also applies to a lot of denominations) is the fact that there is not a mature believer (or mature believers) in that congregation that can help steer that local assembly under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit?

Why do we have "pastors" applying for church position? This idea of the professional pastor is really troubling.

If there are no mature believers in that congregation to lead the assembly, then what exactly has the pastor been teaching his flock all these years???

Paul's instructions about appointing overseers for the local assembly was choosing someone from within that local assembly...

Ofcourse, sometimes, the believers in newly established local assembly will be new in the faith, so they need someone who is already grounded in the faith to lead them.

But, eventually, the local assembly should have enough mature believers to function as church leadership.

We see that in Paul's ministry over and over again. He established local assemblies in places, left Timothy and/ Titus to take care of the place but eventually, they were to appoint overseers from within that local assembly.

But today, we have too many professional pastors who "apply for the job and get the offer..."

Our problem is far bigger than just scandals. Our pastors need to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. It's not enough to just attend "church" on Sunday and Wednesday to just keep hearing sermons over and over again.

In fact, Pastors should not be preaching all the time. Let your flock also teach (1 Cor 14). How do professional pastors even know if their flock is growing spiritually, when it's just hear a sermon every sunday and wednesday over and over again???

Man, we need the body ministry real bad...

Anyhow, carry on...just my musings...

Hey Brother, I'm with you 100%. I have allowed over the 22 years of my pastoring for members to come forth on bible study night and teach on various subjects; this is to test them and to gauge how they are coming along in their understabding, and ability to construct and teach from the bible on many various passages: IT HAS SO BUILT UP OUR CHURCH BODY AND THE PEOPLE'S ESTEEM {"for the perfection (growth-development-maturity) of God's people}!!! Sometimes I will give the members about a week's notice to prepare to teach; oftentimes I may have about 3 persons to teach that night; sometimes I give church tests/examiniations on the bible events-etc, and I tell you it has really built up and given personal growth/edification, and membership growth. I remember when other people heard back in the 90's what we were doing; our church filled up on a consistant basis on Wednesday nights; of course; this cause me**jealousy**problems within the city's populace of other lazy, nonvisionary Pastors-lol...I am NOT a Pastor that's afraid to share in the work of the ministry, nor am I a pastor who's not familiar with the fact that I'm suppose to build up, empower, and equip God's people for Kingdom Ministry-God has rewarded both of my church ministries during these 22 years tremendously, plus-it garneres more respect within our local assembly; everybody truly feels a part of the working of the ministry in some form; whether its' speaking-teaching-song ministry-hospitality-carehome-street evangelism-etc: YOU'RE ON POINT WITH YOUR CONCERN!!! Most of our church members are far AHEAD of others in the word, and the handling of God's word in church, and within the community, and I have received numerous calls over the years for how EFFECTIVE our ministry has been in many people's lives...

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Tlswift2009

Hey Brother, I'm with you 100%. I have allowed over the 22 years of my pastoring for members to come forth on bible study night and teach on various subjects; this is to test them and to gauge how they are coming along in their understabding, and ability to construct and teach from the bible on many various passages: IT HAS SO BUILT UP OUR CHURCH BODY AND THE PEOPLE'S ESTEEM {"for the perfection (growth-development-maturity) of God's people}!!! Sometimes I will give the members about a week's notice to prepare to teach; oftentimes I may have about 3 persons to teach that night; sometimes I give church tests/examiniations on the bible events-etc, and I tell you it has really built up and given personal growth/edification, and membership growth. I remember when other people heard back in the 90's what we were doing; our church filled up on a consistant basis on Wednesday nights; of course; this cause me**jealousy**problems within the city's populace of other lazy, nonvisionary Pastors-lol...I am NOT a Pastor that's afraid to share in the work of the ministry, nor am I a pastor who's not familiar with the fact that I'm suppose to build up, empower, and equip God's people for Kingdom Ministry-God has rewarded both of my church ministries during these 22 years tremendously, plus-it garneres more respect within our local assembly; everybody truly feels a part of the working of the ministry in some form; whether its' speaking-teaching-song ministry-hospitality-carehome-street evangelism-etc: YOU'RE ON POINT WITH YOUR CONCERN!!! Most of our church members are far AHEAD of others in the word, and the handling of God's word in church, and within the community, and I have received numerous calls over the years for how EFFECTIVE our ministry has been in many people's lives...

I am glad you are a Pastor, yet you see what I am saying...

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

While it is certainly true that Paul did, in fact say:

1 Tim 3
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

It is important to bear in mind that it was the very same Apostle who said:

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1Co_12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

And we find this warning in James:
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

It is readily apparent from scripture that the office of the Pastor is not something one can simply presume to place himself in. It is a divine calling and appointment not to be sought out lightly. There are many saints in the Church who serve vital functions in the Body and often minister powerfully in the Gifts. That does not necessarily qualify them to Pastor. Those whom God calls He will qualify, for they will, if serious, be diligent to show themselves approved unto God.

That being said, I do find it sad that a given Church would have to seek beyond its own walls for qualified leadership. It is the function of the "five-fold ministry" to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

Thankfully, there is a movement in the Body of Christ that is taking Church beyond the four walls and to the people. The Saints Movement is coming and it is coming fast. Our traditional models are going to be challenged in the coming days. The result will not be well received by many. It will be a real heart check!

I'd like to hear more about this. You should start a new thread and expound on it more.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I'd like to hear more about this. You should start a new thread and expound on it more.

Its hard to stay away! I knew you would be back to walk among the AFF.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

This right here is what I have been trying to say in so many words, which was why I brought up the maturity of the saints.

My point was not that anyone could function in that office. I was really trying to communicate that if a local assembly is seeking beyond its own walls for qualified leadership (after so many years of a guy being their pastor), then what exactly has he been teaching them all these years?

Saints should be prepared for the work of the ministry (including Pastoring).

Those that should be "applying" for the pastorate should be from within the assembly. They should be tested like 1 Tim 3 says and then officially ordained if they pass the test.

That is not the answer. Know of a church now trying to clean up a mess left by pastor voted in that was already there.

I think prayer fasting for the will of God is the best way to go.

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by Esther

That is not the answer. Know of a church now trying to clean up a mess left by pastor voted in that was already there.

I think prayer fasting for the will of God is the best way to go.

I know of a church that dissolved because of a pastor that was brought in. It happens both ways.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by CC1

Maybe financially but remember at the end of the day they still have to live in Memphis! I love Tennessee but Memphis is the armpit of our state for the most part. There are some nice areas like Germantown but if you take a wrong turn your life is at risk more than probably any town in our state.

I've lived here for 13 years and I've not had a scintilla of fear or problems. Here in the 'burbs our police forces are strong and they keep the crime out. Memphis gets a bum rap for it's crime statistics, but much of that happens in isolated areas that are notorious crime hot spots. I drive into Memphis all of the time without any fear. There are many quiet and peaceful and upscale neighborhoods and areas. It's a great town rich in culture, history, food and music. It's our home.