Human Effort In Salvation?

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You are not questioning whether the love of God fails, you are declaring that it does fail at physical death. I don't believe His love ever fails. There is a purpose for good and evil in this world, but it is just for this world, the age to come will be quite different as God completes His work of redeeming all of His creation.

No, I am questioning whether the individual receives the eternal blessings of God if that man rejects God's love and mercy and decides not to return to God through an act of repentance, for it's appointed to man once to death, and after that, the man is judged. I believe that the LORD is grieved in His heart, to this day, about every person who has died (for we are all His creation) without turning to Him and accepting the relationship He allows us to have through His sacrifice on the cross. If man received reconciliation with God through the eternal love and mercy of God, regardless of whether or not he/she repented and turned to God, there would not be a hell/sheol/lake of fire and every person would be found in His glorious presence at the Holy City, New Jerusalem.

From what I glean from the Scripture pertaining to the prodigal son, there are four main pieces to the story: neglecting one's place in the family (of God), living a life contrary to what the father desired, the son returning back to the father through an act of repentance, and the son receiving the gifts/blessing of the father after repenting. Can you use any other Scripture to show that would show or infer the son would have received the blessings of the father without turning back to him?

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You are not questioning whether the love of God fails, you are declaring that it does fail at physical death. I don't believe His love ever fails. There is a purpose for good and evil in this world, but it is just for this world, the age to come will be quite different as God completes His work of redeeming all of His creation.

I'm not understanding that he is declaring that the love of God fails at physical death. If the prodigal son had decided that he liked it out there in the muck and mire and chose to stay there until his death, his father's love would not have ended just because the son had made that decision. In fact, I believe that if the son had died in the muck and mire, the father would have grieved terribly because the son was now lost to him forever. But it was the son's choice. Not the father's.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by Margies3

I'm not understanding that he is declaring that the love of God fails at physical death. If the prodigal son had decided that he liked it out there in the muck and mire and chose to stay there until his death, his father's love would not have ended just because the son had made that decision. In fact, I believe that if the son had died in the muck and mire, the father would have grieved terribly because the son was now lost to him forever. But it was the son's choice. Not the father's.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Sorry about the grammatical errors in my earlier post. That was pretty bad.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Margies3

I'm not understanding that he is declaring that the love of God fails at physical death. If the prodigal son had decided that he liked it out there in the muck and mire and chose to stay there until his death, his father's love would not have ended just because the son had made that decision. In fact, I believe that if the son had died in the muck and mire, the father would have grieved terribly because the son was now lost to him forever. But it was the son's choice. Not the father's.

The son would have only been lost for the age, not forever, as David understand when his son died, and he was questioned on why he stop grieving. His response, "...he cannot come to me, yet I will go to him..." The end of physical life in this world is not the end, only the end of the beginning.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The son would have only been lost for the age, not forever, as David understand when his son died, and he was questioned on why he stop grieving. His response, "...he cannot come to me, yet I will go to him..." The end of physical life in this world is not the end, only the end of the beginning.

Will everyone that has ever lived be in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, that John saw at the end of His recorded vision that we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ? If not, who is excluded and why?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Will everyone that has ever lived be in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, that John saw at the end of His recorded vision that we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ? If not, who is excluded and why?

No, Rev. 22, tells us who is outside, yet the Spirit and the bride is still saying, "Come!"

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

No, Rev. 22, tells us who is outside, yet the Spirit and the bride is still saying, "Come!"

Actually, it's Revelation 21:8 that states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

With that, if the prodigal son wouldn't have returned to the father because he didn't think he needed to in order to receive his reward (unbelieving, specifically without Christian faith), wouldn't he be counted among those who found their part in the lake of fire?

I'm also slightly confused with your comment - Are you saying,

A) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to people now in order to come to the Father

or

B) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to the people who are outside the Holy City described in 21:8

or

C) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to the people who are prodigal sons/daughters in reality

or

D) Something different?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Actually, it's Revelation 21:8 that states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

With that, if the prodigal son wouldn't have returned to the father because he didn't think he needed to in order to receive his reward (unbelieving, specifically without Christian faith), wouldn't he be counted among those who found their part in the lake of fire?

I'm also slightly confused with your comment - Are you saying,

A) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to people now in order to come to the Father

or

B) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to the people who are outside the Holy City described in 21:8

or

C) The Spirit and bride are saying, "Come!", to the people who are prodigal sons/daughters in reality

or

D) Something different?

How about B), since Rev 21:25 says,
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Ever wonder why the gates will never be shut, and who are, "...the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations..." for?

BTW: Also, who will the elect rule over? If all is said and done at physical death? Or if the "unelected" are burned to a crisp, or preserved endlessly in a custom torture chamber?

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

How about B), since Rev 21:25 says,
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Ever wonder why the gates will never be shut, and who are, "...the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations..." for?

BTW: Also, who will the elect rule over? If all is said and done at physical death? Or if the "unelected" are burned to a crisp, or preserved endlessly in a custom torture chamber?

You seem to be contradicting your previous post when you said not all people would be in the New Jerusalem. I also think our concepts of God's timeline may be different. I believe the following:

1. God comes back for His church and gives them glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:51-53).
2. Once God has His church with Him, He comes back with those (1 Th 4:14-17) who are deemed worthy to reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10).
3. 1,000 years occur with the Kingdom of Jesus being established in Israel. Satan is bound in a pit during this time. The Jews are the subjects of the Kingdom and those counted worthy from the Church Age help Jesus to administer His Kingdom (Rev 20:4-6).
4. After the Millennial Reign, those who were not part of the 1st resurrection (and subsequently "slept" during the 1,000 year reign) awake and the white throne judgment occurs (Rev 20:11-12). I believe those who "will sleep" during the reign will do so because their faith produced no works while they were alive, which is why they were judged by their works.
5. Those with their names written in the Lamb's book of life enter into Holy Jerusalem and those who don't have their name in the book are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

I have thought about why the gates will never be shut and my belief is so we can explore. Explore what you may ask? Whatever is outside the gates. The Bible doesn't explain much about what is outside the gates, but I'm seriously doubting the Lake of Fire is next door and accessible to visitors. Once this city is manifest, the invitations have all been sent and the roll has been established by the Book of Life. You're either in or you're out.

I have also thought about the leaves that are for the healing of the nations. In this place, the Holy Jerusalem, there is no pain/tears/death/sickness etc. I believe that the leaves of tree are correlated with the environment that produces the lack of negative (for a lack of a better word) conditions and emotions that people experience. Jesus ate after the resurrection in His glorified body (Luke 24:42-43) and our bodies will be like His (1 John 3:2). If Jesus ate in His glorified body, we will be able to do the same. The Bible does not give instruction on what, if anything, these bodies will need as nourishment. If they need anything, I believe it is found on this tree.

Do you mind posting the scripture reference to the "Who will the elect rule over", question? My first thought is that is referring to the Millennial Reign, but I'm not sure until I see the reference. My belief is, during the Millenial Reign where the Kingdom of Jesus is established in physical Israel, all of the nations will come to receive the Word of the LORD from Zion and those who have been counted worthy from the Church Age will help Him to administer His kingdom. Those who are not in this "Administration" will sleep for the thousand years. See Revelation 20:4-6. I'd have to study a bit because it's been a while since I've dug in to this topic, but I can't recall ever studying scripture and feeling that anyone but God is going to rule in Holy Jerusalem.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

You seem to be contradicting your previous post when you said not all people would be in the New Jerusalem. I also think our concepts of God's timeline may be different. I believe the following:

1. God comes back for His church and gives them glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:51-53).
2. Once God has His church with Him, He comes back with those (1 Th 4:14-17) who are deemed worthy to reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10).
3. 1,000 years occur with the Kingdom of Jesus being established in Israel. Satan is bound in a pit during this time. The Jews are the subjects of the Kingdom and those counted worthy from the Church Age help Jesus to administer His Kingdom (Rev 20:4-6).
4. After the Millennial Reign, those who were not part of the 1st resurrection (and subsequently "slept" during the 1,000 year reign) awake and the white throne judgment occurs (Rev 20:11-12). I believe those who "will sleep" during the reign will do so because their faith produced no works while they were alive, which is why they were judged by their works.
5. Those with their names written in the Lamb's book of life enter into Holy Jerusalem and those who don't have their name in the book are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

I have thought about why the gates will never be shut and my belief is so we can explore. Explore what you may ask? Whatever is outside the gates. The Bible doesn't explain much about what is outside the gates, but I'm seriously doubting the Lake of Fire is next door and accessible to visitors. Once this city is manifest, the invitations have all been sent and the roll has been established by the Book of Life. You're either in or you're out.

I have also thought about the leaves that are for the healing of the nations. In this place, the Holy Jerusalem, there is no pain/tears/death/sickness etc. I believe that the leaves of tree are correlated with the environment that produces the lack of negative (for a lack of a better word) conditions and emotions that people experience. Jesus ate after the resurrection in His glorified body (Luke 24:42-43) and our bodies will be like His (1 John 3:2). If Jesus ate in His glorified body, we will be able to do the same. The Bible does not give instruction on what, if anything, these bodies will need as nourishment. If they need anything, I believe it is found on this tree.

Do you mind posting the scripture reference to the "Who will the elect rule over", question? My first thought is that is referring to the Millennial Reign, but I'm not sure until I see the reference. My belief is, during the Millenial Reign where the Kingdom of Jesus is established in physical Israel, all of the nations will come to receive the Word of the LORD from Zion and those who have been counted worthy from the Church Age will help Him to administer His kingdom. Those who are not in this "Administration" will sleep for the thousand years. See Revelation 20:4-6. I'd have to study a bit because it's been a while since I've dug in to this topic, but I can't recall ever studying scripture and feeling that anyone but God is going to rule in Holy Jerusalem.

My understanding is that the Spirit and the bride never stop calling to those outside the open gates, "Come". And those outside the open gates continue to come, until EVERY mouth confesses and every knee bows, and declare Jesus to be Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Thought: forced confession would not be glory to the Father.) Then when ALL have come to right relationship to Jesus, then He will God will be "...all in all..." Which can never the case as long as anything or anyone is outside of Him. The elect or the church will participate in the completion of all things, as the bride is calling "Come", ruling over those that are still in transit, and also BTW, "...don't you know that you will judge angels..." as well.

Why would God Almighty create, only to condemn the majority??? When He has the will and the power to redeem ALL?? Redemption is not holding guiltless, if also includes the process of purification. Fire is the symbol of this purification, as in wheat and chaff, and as in gold and silver and dross.