I'm leaving my church. Please pray.

[CC1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLrphMDcFeE

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Thank you for commenting, but would you mind clarifying your statement a bit?

Sorry, I made the comment on the fly and probably could have stated it different. On the quick read it seems you are lumping too much over a period of time into what the real issue is. Some of what has occurred are very unfortunate events but not out of the ordinary of what most of us experience.

Hope that clarifies a bit and my prayers for your situation with the current church and pastor.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by SRM

Be set free..I left the IC system 3 years ago..best decision I ever done..amazing what you see when your not in the box

[Jermyn Davidson]

Don't leave your current church.

Don't read into your Pastor's statements.

Confront him in humility, after you pray, ask him direct questions, get direct answers, and then you will know for sure what your next steps should be.

[ILG]

Sorry this happened to you. You and your wife deserve better. So, if the church has financial problems, according to your pastor, maybe he wasn't paying his tithes! What is good for the goose is good for the gander! Anyway, I think leaving would be the healthy choice emotionally. Godspeed to you.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Originalist

First of all, if you happen to know my true identity, I ask that you please not blow my cover.

I must admit that I write you today with a very heavy heart. Something happened at church last night that has pretty much convinced me that it is time for me to find another church, and possibly resign from the UPC all together.

Let me give you some background before I get into that.

In January 2009 a prophecy went forth in the church I had been attending for 16 years that severe economic trials were coming to some people in our church . Part of the prophecy said that there was a specific person who was going to be defrauded out of thousands of dollars, and that it was going to be a hard pill to swallow, but that they’d have to just give it to God and accept it. The prophecy went on to say that God wanted us to be of good courage and fear not. Somehow in my heart I knew right then and there I was the one who was going to be defrauded, but that God was preparing me for the coming storm. In May of that year, the storm hit. I lived strictly on commission from the company I was involved with. For about 4 years I was making a modest but decent income of between 50 and 56 thousand dollars a year. In addition, I was substitute teaching about 60 hours a month.

That summer I made only a thousand dollars, and of course there was no teaching income because school was out for the Summer. My wife was pregnant with our second child. I began to apply for work because I had this sense that my income was going to soon completely vanish. I applied for work all over our county, but to no avail. Everything is done online now and nobody was even acknowledging they were viewing my resume. Of course this was during severe economic times nationally and businesses were swamped with applicants. My second child was about to be born, the county had stopped using sub teachers due to cutbacks, and I could not find a job. So I put my house for sale in the Fall of 2009.

It was about this time that my mom began to complain of a severe lack of energy. The real red flag came when one day she could not even get out of the bath tub. She checked herself into the hospital on November 22, 2009 and did not leave there until her death on February 2, 2010. Tests showed that she had developed a very rare autoimmune disorder. The prophesied storm was taking its toll.

As a result of my mom’s death, we inherited her house which was a 1980 model , double wide mobile home on 5 acres of land, about 90 minutes from where we were living. This was a silver lining to the tragedy of her death. We would be living mortgage/rent free. However, the place had fallen into some disrepair and it took allot of the small amount of money we earned from the sale of our house to make it livable again. But the good news was our income seemed to be ticking back up. I was making a couple of thousand dollars a month consistently, as well as substitute teaching. We still were not making as much as we had previously, but with no mortgage and a paid for car, we were hopeful that we’d be able to start saving some money.

At that time we made a personal commitment to start tithing off of the gross of our business income. Up until that point we had been incorporated and paid tithes off of the salary we paid ourselves from our business income. We started doing this as soon as we started attending our current church in June of 2010 and continued doing so until the end of 2011. We did not tell anyone we were doing this.

In December of 2011 another tragedy hit us. A couple of guys with the company we were with betrayed us secretly by working for a competitor company. They managed to steal away a considerable amount of the top money earners in my direct lineage, thus completely wiping out my income. The rest of the prophecy of January 2009 had come to pass. We were now totally dependent on my substitute teaching income. It was at this time that our pastor announced that our church was in a major financial crisis and that unless the members gave extra towards the building fund, there could be major consequences. Knowing he was about to notice a major drop in my giving (I ended up making only nine thousand dollars in 2012) I told him about our dilemma. I stressed to him that I was not looking for financial help, but that we did not want him to think we were bailing on him during his and the church’s difficult time. It was then that we divulged to him that we had been tithing on the gross of our business income. To his credit, our pastor had not taken a salary for about 3 months because of the church's financial problems

2012 was a difficult year. I had gotten allot of sub teaching work that spring semester, but I was unable to find a summer job. I mean there was NOTHING. I had to literally cash in gold and silver coins and sell my old boat just to survive. Even after school started that Fall, subbing was hit and miss. The search for a second part time job search continued, but nothing materialized. I couldn’t even land a job bagging groceries. Since the time we started attending our new church in June of 2010, we had been involved in Spanish ministry. Every Sunday we would attend the AM service, the Sunday afternoon Spanish service, and the PM service. For two solid years we did not even go home on Sundays. We brought our own lunch and took naps in the Sunday School rooms. I only mention that to stress that we were involved.

Finally, in November of 2012 I landed a part time job at Walgreens working 20 hours a week for 8 dollars an hour, with a Bach's degree. The manager had initially told me they were not hiring. But 15 minutes after I talked to her, an employee turned in their 2 weeks notice. So she decided to check out my online application, and to her delight it, and to my surprise, my application was flagged “highly recommended”. She would never have known that had she not manually looked up the application. This made me wonder how many more of my applications had been flagged “highly recommended” at the dozens of other places I had applied. But with thousands of applications flooding their inboxes, managers simply cannot view them all. If you don’t know someone at the place your applying, chances are you will not get a job there. I worked for one company from 1988 to 1999, and another company from 1999 to 2008 (besides my at home income). In both cases, I knew someone who worked there who put in a good word for me.

From November 2012 to April 2013, I worked 7 days a week between my two part time jobs. I was only able to make it to church one service a week. My participation in ministry came to a halt. I literally had 2 days off during that 5 month period. We have only one car, and for those 5 months the only time my wife left the house was when we went to church.

It was at that time I began to notice a change in my pastor's attitude. He made comments to me like “Brother, I know I do not need to remind you of the importance of church attendance”. Or from the pulpit he’d say things like, “If you have a job that makes you miss church, then you are out of God’s will.” But then one day he made this remark from the pulpit, “If someone in this church is struggling financially, all I have to do is check their tithing record to know why.” Both my wife and I thought for sure we had misunderstood him, so we basically put the comment out of our minds.

I hate to hear you are going through this. I could count on less than one finger the number of times I have agreed with anything Jermyn posts but in his post on this thread the one thing he said I agree with 100% is that you should go directly to your pastor to discuss this matter to confirm if your suspicions are true that it is you he is constantly referring to in his diatribes about tithe paying. I am 94.9% sure your suspicions are correct but as a matter of principle you should be sure.

[ILG]

Generally speaking, if someone is too much of a coward that they say subtle digs to you to get you to comply with their wishes, they will not admit it if you confront them. So, I think they should confront if they are emotionally prepared/feel they need to. Otherwise, I would just leave.

[The Lemon]

Saying a prayer for you brother! Your family is you top priority...PERIOD! I understand it takes money and time to reach people, and yes, to have a building to worship in - that said, I have been vocal throughout the years concerning the "business" of church.

More and more I see relationship with Jesus being replaced by religious rituals and tradition and being peddled as "old paths" - it is sad. While we all are responsible in this relationship to Christ, and while there are certain aspects ans actions we must follow - certainly, it can be overstated at times and the list of "to do's" can increasingly get longer and longer until you begin to wonder if you will ever be enough, do enough, pray enough etc. - when this happens - it is religion.

My heart goes out to you because it seems all that you have done has come from a sincere heart, tender toward people and God. The harsh reality is that sometimes we can be programmed and controlled to a point of shedding our individuality and right to make grown -up choices in the best interest of ourselves and families - and believe that doing so is certainly the will of God. While it may be, it may not be as well.

My wife and I have also been in the trial of our lives the last six years. Ours has been mostly a spiritual battle, so at least on some level I can relate. I have no issue with the advice of others to go to the Pastor and properly ask the questions and address the issues - that said, I would be surprised if you get the answers you believe to be correct.

God did not give you the spirit of fear - while I would suggest handling this Biblically and talking with him - understand that in the end, you have to make the choice for you and your family. If you can stay peaceably, then stay, even in spite of differences.

during my struggle, I have missed some services - I have been sat down - I know what it feels like to feel you need to perform for approval and opportunities to share what God has given you. I play music, and am licensed, if I go away with my family for a weekend - you can bet the following Sunday, I am not asked on the platform to play. No words spoken, but a silent rebuke is just as loud as a verbal one, believe me.

I have noticed when I do all that is expected, dress the part, attend, give and all in betweens, I am included - if I hiccup, boom, it changes. It is sad, and speaks nothing of relationship, but screams religion loud and clear.

In spite of what I may disagree with, I believe the message and choose to stay. If he comes to me and becomes unreasonable and chooses to handle things in a demanding and controlling way and takes a hard fast stand - well then I will have to do more seeking and praying for the next decision - until then, I will do what I can to live peaceably in my current situation.

Not sure if this helps at all - but I appreciate your transparency.

[n david]

I agree you should meet and talk with your Pastor. From personal experience, I would recommend NOT meeting the Pastor in his office at the church. Meet in a public or semi-public setting. The reason why is because I would also recommend either using a phone app or digital recorder to record the conversation. Florida law requires both parties consent to audio recording; however, there is an exception. If you both are in an area with no reasonable expectation of privacy (ie someone could overhear the conversation), you may record without consent.

If you do not want to go that route, I would then suggest taking someone with you - someone who you aren't necessarily close with and who could be a good witness.

If things are as bad as written, you will need some kind of witness in case things go badly during the meeting, or he tries to blacklist you.

[Real Realism]

I know I'm an outsider here...

But regardless of whether or not the pastor was subtly referring to your situation in his comments, I think it's clear that his assertion that "those who go through financial troubles must not be paying tithes or giving enough" is an insult to your faithfulness. At worst, his comments are unBiblical. At best, he just wasn't thinking through it thoroughly and his comments are careless and insensitive.

It rains on the just and unjust. I don't know why these situations have piled on you over the years - and I'm sure "why" is a question you've asked more times than you can count. But through this, understand that God's faithfulness and mercy is not dependent on how great our external blessings may appear. And your relationship with Him is not dependent on what a misguided man interprets as His will. Saying a prayer for you now that God will lead you into the path where your family will find peace and a deeper relationship with Him, despite (or maybe even through) everything that has happened.