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  #21  
Old 10-23-2013, 09:37 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Realism View Post
But if they are two separate commandments, what is the point? If you obey the "first one" then there's no need for the second one. It only makes sense as a cohesive thought. The second portion indicates the intent that is sinful and should be avoided.
Consider the fourth commandment. There is one element - remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Then there is the other element - do no servile work therein. One commandment, two parts or two aspects.

Do you see?
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  #22  
Old 10-23-2013, 09:38 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

BTW, I am not arguing FOR the position, I am just working through it, exhausting all the evidence, 'proving all things' etc etc. Thanks for those of you who are patient, I often take the 'devil's advocate' approach to things as I want to be thorough.
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  #23  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:16 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
BTW, I am not arguing FOR the position, I am just working through it, exhausting all the evidence, 'proving all things' etc etc. Thanks for those of you who are patient, I often take the 'devil's advocate' approach to things as I want to be thorough.
Esaias, just for the record, I respect your approach and even when we disagree, I respect you.

if my "idiot" comment here offended, I am sorry. It was certainly not directed at you.
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:30 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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Esaias, just for the record, I respect your approach and even when we disagree, I respect you.

if my "idiot" comment here offended, I am sorry. It was certainly not directed at you.
No offense taken! (Usually because I am well skilled in the mysteries of idiocy!)

lol
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:32 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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No offense taken! (Usually because I am well skilled in the mysteries of idiocy!)

lol
speaking of idiocy, see my sig line!
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:53 PM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

Are toys graven images?

The only difference in men and boys is the price of their toys.


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  #27  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:08 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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Are toys graven images?

The only difference in men and boys is the price of their toys.


They only get more expensive.

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  #28  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:26 PM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Consider the fourth commandment. There is one element - remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Then there is the other element - do no servile work therein. One commandment, two parts or two aspects.

Do you see?
That actually proves the point further. The second part is clarification to tell you how to keep it holy - not a separate and distinct command. Therefore, if you do servile work, you are not obeying the command to keep the sabbath holy. It's one cohesive thought. The same as with the negative of "do not make any graven image"...for what purpose? To bow down and worship. The fourth is: "Keep the sabbath holy by not doing servile work."

Last edited by Real Realism; 10-24-2013 at 07:30 PM.
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  #29  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:30 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

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Originally Posted by Real Realism View Post
That actually proves the point further. The second part is clarification to tell you how to keep it holy - not a separate and distinct command. Therefore, if you do servile work, you are not obeying the command to keep the sabbath holy. It's one cohesive thought. The same as with the negative of "do not make any graven image"...for what purpose? To bow down and worship. The fourth is: "Keep the sabbath holy by not doing servile work."
Interesting take although I do not see how idleness makes a day 'holy'. Consider God 'rested, and THEN he 'sanctified' the day 'because he had rested'.

In any event, I am pretty convinced this has to do with idolatry and not so much the mere fact of making a likeness, otherwise Moses would have been in violation by making the brass serpent, and the ark would have been in violation because it had cherubim, and the Temple would have been in violation because it had various designs of plants, trees etc on it as commanded by God according to the vision he gave David.

Although I must admit, having cherubim on the ark, the location of worship of God, seems to be 'cutting it pretty close'... lol
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  #30  
Old 10-25-2013, 08:46 AM
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Re: Are toys graven images?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Realism View Post
That actually proves the point further. The second part is clarification to tell you how to keep it holy - not a separate and distinct command. Therefore, if you do servile work, you are not obeying the command to keep the sabbath holy. It's one cohesive thought. The same as with the negative of "do not make any graven image"...for what purpose? To bow down and worship. The fourth is: "Keep the sabbath holy by not doing servile work."
I am glad this came up.

The fact, is Keep the Sabbath holy, was the command.

as time progressed, the religious leaders decided they needed to define that down to how far a person could walk to church, before walking was considered work.

They decided to define, how much or if one could take out the trash... including the previous nights waste... before it was considered work.

They worried about, if you toss something out, and there perchance was a seed in the trash, and that seed germinated, and grew, then you had done some "work' and had thus defiled the sabath.

It is clear from the Gospels that Jesus rejected this legalistic parsing of scripture. It is clear that Jesus was focused on the intent of God established in the commandments.

Even Paul discussed this in great detail. The Law being a harsh taskmaster.

The intent of the commandment to keep the Sabbath Holy was to insure that man set aside a day to worship and honor God. It was that simple.

It was also ultra radical. These were people we would consider barbarian. they were only slightly removed from Hunter/Gatherer tribes and in fact when the commandment was handed down, these were nomadic people living off the land. The amount of work (short of the Mana from heaven) to simply stay alive and protected from those who would attack them, was extreme.

Not working on one day a week would have been by all standards a very radical proposal.

But define it down to the number of steps one can or cannot take in a day? nonsense. utter legalism that defies the very nature of God.

Back to the idea of graven images.

God handed down a simple commandment. Worship God. Dont create some other god by your own hands to worship as all the other tribes around you do. simple. yet radical. EVERYBODY created their own Gods. EVERYBODY made statues and drawings and images of these gods they served.

The One True God demanded worship that was utterly different from all other false gods. He said "dont make an image and worship it. You cannot define ME by creating something with your own hands".

How does that get translated in the modern mind that is bent on legalizing things?

Oh my, I cant draw a stick figure. I cant let my kids play with Weeble Wobbles because they will fall down and worship the toy!


A lot of what we talk about here is based on men trying to define an undefinable God. This is the heart of Pauls message in Romans! "We are not bound by the law, but we are guided by GRACE!" That does not (according to Paul) give us permission to sin! God forbid! BUT it does give us command not to create sin where there is no sin.

Tittus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

We loose track of the real purpose of Grace in the life of the saved person. We get the part about being saved by Grace, thru faith and not of ourselves, but we quit grace right there. We dont hold the expectation that Grace will move on the saved person to learn and grow in Christ. That is not a corporate thing (some preacher telling folks not to wear red socks is not Grace), but those that run from legalism, often run past Grace being active too.

The balance is to not run from anything, but to reject those things that Jesus rejected. Jesus rejected both sin and legalism. Paul taught us to listen to the spirit of God and be taught by Grace....Then Peter wrapped it up by telling us to Grow in Grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ (2PET3:18)

This is in a nutshell Sanctification

I love you all. lets all strive to aviod defining how many paces we can take on Sunday without it becoming "work"... but lets all allow the spirit of God to move us to where he wants us to be....WITHOUT PROJECTING!
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Last edited by Ferd; 10-25-2013 at 08:50 AM.
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