Submission to a pastor

[KeptByTheWord]

Votive Soul, I understand the reasoning with which you made the above comments, and although it seems that "pastor bashing" is common on AFF, there is a reason for it. Many of us have been in abusive pastor situations, much like Ezekiel 34 describes:

Ezekiel 34:1-4
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

Perhaps you have been blessed to have never experienced an abusive pastor, as Ezekiel describes above, but I have.

However, because of my past experiences, it doesn't mean that I hate pastors, it is just that the NT writings from Paul the apostle teach plural ministerial authority in the church, and I have yet to find a truly plural ministry operating as was taught to the NT church in a typical church setting today.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

So the NT writer of Hebrews was instructing the readers of his epistle to follow "THEM" who had the rule, which of course, would go along with the five different ministries mentioned in Ephesians 4:11, and the many different ministries mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:28 (apostles, prophets, teachers - no mention of pastors here). And the final instruction given in Hebrews was to FOLLOW THEIR FAITH, CONSIDERING THE END OF THEIR CONVERSATION.

We must look at the fruits of the Spirit being produced by those in leadership, and consider the end of their faith. If those in ministry are following those guidelines, obeying them would not be a problem, because they would not be imposing manmade doctrines on their sheep, instead they would be focused on teaching the principles of the doctrine of Christ, to perfect the inner man, rather than trying to perfect the "outer man".

[Esaias]

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Tim 5:17

The local church is to be 'ruled' by elderS (plural). Furthermore, some (plural) are involved in 'labouring in the word and teaching', not just one man.

What does that word 'rule' mean? I notice it is the same word translated 'maintain', as in 'maintain good works', in Titus 3:8 and Titus 3:14. The word means to 'superintend'.

How are elders to superintend the church of God? Jesus gave the answer -

Mar 10:42
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

Mar 10:43
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

Mar 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The word 'minister' in verse 43 is diakonos. Thus, whoever is to rule in the church of God is be the people's 'deacon'. What is a diakonos?

"one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

the servant of a king

a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

a waiter, one who serves food and drink"

Thus, the elders (plural) who are to 'rule' in the ekklesia are to be servants, who tend to the needs of others. Not merely a 'servant' in name only, like how many government 'servants' actually fancy themselves lords who are to be served by the people, but 'servants' in the same sense as the waitstaff at a restaurant, or in the same sense as one who carries out the commands of another, who tends to their needs. Thus, elders who 'rule' must do so in the same way the Lord did when He was on earth - as a servant, who's entire purpose was to MEET NEEDS, not have his own needs met.

In Eph 4:11-14, 'pastors' are only one of several servants of the church. The word simply means 'shepherds'. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherds/teachers, are servants of the church. Apostles are clearly identified as elders, in the book of Acts we see that apparently some designated as 'prophets' functioned as elders as well. In other words, the Ephesians list is a (not all inclusive, or not exhaustive) list of types of service performed by people for the church, fulfilling their role as elders in the assembly.

The idea that a local church is to be headed by one pastor, that he is the sole authority in a church, that he exercises authority over the church in the same manner as the 'rulers of the Gentiles', is wholly unbiblical.

Rather, the biblical pattern is the local church is tended to by elders (plural), who serve as SERVANTS to the church, meeting the church's needs, providing direction and guidance by their example of (true) holiness and by sound teaching.

[Abiding Now]

Hmmmm I may be wrong here, but from what I'm reading, there just aren't many folks interested in doing that SUBMISSION to a pastor stuff.

[Michael The Disciple]

If one is blessed to find a real New Testament Pastor/Pastors then they are under obligation to obey them, following their example.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Hmmmm I may be wrong here, but from what I'm reading, there just aren't many folks interested in doing that SUBMISSION to a pastor stuff.

Should one obey this? Pastor told backsliders they have to pay back tithes lost for the time they were out. If it was true is one obligated to pay?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Hmmmm I may be wrong here, but from what I'm reading, there just aren't many folks interested in doing that SUBMISSION to a pastor stuff.

Again, in what context? Were the Bereans wrong for checking the doctrine out by the scriptures before submitting?

[Abiding Now]

See...............

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Tim 5:17

The local church is to be 'ruled' by elderS (plural). Furthermore, some (plural) are involved in 'labouring in the word and teaching', not just one man.

What does that word 'rule' mean? I notice it is the same word translated 'maintain', as in 'maintain good works', in Titus 3:8 and Titus 3:14. The word means to 'superintend'.

How are elders to superintend the church of God? Jesus gave the answer -

Mar 10:42
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

Mar 10:43
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

Mar 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The word 'minister' in verse 43 is diakonos. Thus, whoever is to rule in the church of God is be the people's 'deacon'. What is a diakonos?

"one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

the servant of a king

a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

a waiter, one who serves food and drink"

Thus, the elders (plural) who are to 'rule' in the ekklesia are to be servants, who tend to the needs of others. Not merely a 'servant' in name only, like how many government 'servants' actually fancy themselves lords who are to be served by the people, but 'servants' in the same sense as the waitstaff at a restaurant, or in the same sense as one who carries out the commands of another, who tends to their needs. Thus, elders who 'rule' must do so in the same way the Lord did when He was on earth - as a servant, who's entire purpose was to MEET NEEDS, not have his own needs met.

In Eph 4:11-14, 'pastors' are only one of several servants of the church. The word simply means 'shepherds'. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherds/teachers, are servants of the church. Apostles are clearly identified as elders, in the book of Acts we see that apparently some designated as 'prophets' functioned as elders as well. In other words, the Ephesians list is a (not all inclusive, or not exhaustive) list of types of service performed by people for the church, fulfilling their role as elders in the assembly.

The idea that a local church is to be headed by one pastor, that he is the sole authority in a church, that he exercises authority over the church in the same manner as the 'rulers of the Gentiles', is wholly unbiblical.

Rather, the biblical pattern is the local church is tended to by elders (plural), who serve as SERVANTS to the church, meeting the church's needs, providing direction and guidance by their example of (true) holiness and by sound teaching.

Excellent teaching!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If one is blessed to find a real New Testament Pastor/Pastors then they are under obligation to obey them, following their example.

Amen.

[votivesoul]

I am all for plurality of elders. It is the Biblical model, and I agree wholeheartedly with it.

But not everyone has the model working in their local assembly, right now, so my comments were directed at those who don't have that model.

Secondly, I have had an abusive pastor, for ten years. If you want all the gory details, PM me.

But I will say this:

GOD, yes GOD, removed him. Here's the short version...

After a leadership meeting in which he attacked, derided, and threatened us, he had me stay after for an extra unwarranted keel hulling regarding me taking early time off from ministry as my wife went into her 8th month of pregnancy with our first child (just to give you an idea).

I didn't fight back, I didn't speak up, I didn't defend myself against the injustice. I bowed my head and left.

Later that day, in prayer, trying not to get offended, or let the hurt of the situation go too deeply, God said "He's a bully". That settled it for me, and I didn't worry about it at all. Peace like a river.

Two weeks later, a prophet came to our church, met with the leadership team, said "God told me there is sin in the camp".

My former pastor and the prophet talked privately afterward. Two weeks later, the pastor resigned, a month later, he was gone.

Again, that's the condensed version.

But here is what I gained out of the experience:

1.) If I can submit to him in all things (as I did) then I can submit to anyone, up to and including God Himself, if He should ever require a hard level of sacrifice otherwise against my human will.

2.) Just as David's heart melted for coming against a demon-afflicted Saul, so, too did I realize that God allows certain people into your life to teach hard lessons. These are to be embraced as gifts from God.

3.) Adversity and trials are the main catalyst for spiritual growth. Without them, we wilt and fade away.

4.) The cross comes in many shapes and sizes. Whatever the Lord knows it takes for me to endure until the end, I will receive, including a pastor who lost his way and did as much damage, if not more, than any good he accomplished.

5.) I now appreciate those ministers more who take a much more gentle approach to leadership and shepherding. I also have more compassion on those who've gone through the school of hard-knocks.

6.) That if a pastor has lost it and becomes an Ezekiel 34 type of pastor, the worst thing that one could possibly do is bail, and leave the rest of the brethren to that man's tyranny.

I am blessed by the Lord for having stayed, having submitted, having given honor when sometimes, especially toward the end, when no honor was due. I am telling you, reverencing some not for their person and demeanor, but for the calling and anointing God has placed on them (even if they end up back-slidden and corrupted, throwing spears to kill) is the single most important lost teaching in the church today.

You must understand. Jesus had nothing to do with the abuse I and we suffered. It wasn't His fault. I was ordained by God to be in the local assembly I was and still am, in.

Not knowing that, or not caring enough to stay with that in mind, would have been a personal disaster, no matter how just and righteous it would have seemed for me to leave.

Turn the other cheek really means what it means. These teachings of the Lord are so routinely forgotten and ignored, or at least people don't realize what they look like and how they are to be applied in and by the real world.

We are way too comfortable with our own ease.