Angels: Ministering Spirits

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Real Realism

I don't think your misunderstanding the question, but I also think the answer to my question is that there isn't Scripture to support praying for angelic experience or protection. Yes, angels appear and interact with humanity, and we are told we could meet them without even knowing we have done so. But nothing in Scripture that tells us it's an experience we should seek out or that we should seek them out as Godly protection.

In the armor of God, angelic protection is not amongst the things we should seek to help us through the traps of this life.

Unless there's a portion of Scripture I'm completely missing/forgetting, that is.

In fact, is there not scripture which warns about our attitude towards angels, to beware of getting involved in worshipping them?. Not saying Aquila is worshipping some angel named 'Sam' but consider - the catholics began with 'high respect' for departed saints and wind up praying to them, kissing their icons and statues, burning incense to their statues and icons, etc etc...

Seems like a thin line that should be tread carefully. Slippery slopes and all that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Real Realism

I don't think your misunderstanding the question, but I also think the answer to my question is that there isn't Scripture to support praying for angelic experience or protection. Yes, angels appear and interact with humanity, and we are told we could meet them without even knowing we have done so. But nothing in Scripture that tells us it's an experience we should seek out or that we should seek them out as Godly protection.

In the armor of God, angelic protection is not amongst the things we should seek to help us through the traps of this life.

Unless there's a portion of Scripture I'm completely missing/forgetting, that is.

Real, are you aware of orthopraxy by implication? It intends to not only understand that the Bible states by letter, word, and verse... but also expand upon it's implications.

You see... the Bible doesn't tell me much about many things that we seek and experience. Like dancing "in the Spirit". Or being "slain in the Spirit". However, these experiences can be said to be implied.

When one gets to a certain point of spiritual maturity... they cease to be so "letter" oriented and progress into being "Spirit" oriented. They don't need text on it... it isn't forbidden anywhere in Scripture to pray for divine assistance or to converse with angels (the entire book of Revelation is essentially John's conversation with the Lord and the angels). We see angels throughout the Book of Acts working on behalf of believers. We're warned to help strangers because many have entertained angels unawares. They are among us. Richly among us.

In fact many admonitions about angels in the NT imply angelic involvement (the Ministry of Angels). Paul writes...

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If it wasn't to be done at all... why must we be cautious about what an angel reveals to us? The implication is clear... if an angel comes to us and proclaims the truth of Christ, we do well to heed what he says. Imagine if Peter would have refused to arise and follow the angel out of the prison.

Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Here we are warned against worshipping angels. We don't worship them. They serve us by request. Essentially... we direct them as they guard and guide us. But we do not worship angels. They are not to receive the adoration that only God deserves. For this reason, "Holy Angels" typically never reveal their names. Worship is typically connected to knowing the name of something. Note... throughout the entire Bible angels are mentioned over 300 times. However, the Bible only names... 3 angels! I had to give mine a "nickname"! LOL!

There are strange birds out there who do not follow the Lord and who do not have the Holy Ghost. They intrude into the worshipping of angels. One cult is built entirely around the Archangel Michael. There are those who use angel tarot cards, crystals, etc. They give false visions and admonitions. And another thing they all have in common... "knowing your angel's name".

A holy angel will typically never reveal his name or encourage occult practices. All is through the Spirit.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

When one gets to a certain point of spiritual maturity... they cease to be so "letter" oriented and progress into being "Spirit" oriented. They don't need text on it...

Does this mean that the spiritually mature can produce doctrines that don't 'need any text on it'? sounds like a really slippery slope...

Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

In fact, is there not scripture which warns about our attitude towards angels, to beware of getting involved in worshipping them?. Not saying Aquila is worshipping some angel named 'Sam' but consider - the catholics began with 'high respect' for departed saints and wind up praying to them, kissing their icons and statues, burning incense to their statues and icons, etc etc...

Seems like a thin line that should be tread carefully. Slippery slopes and all that.

Agreed. There can be a thin line. You'll notice that the further you get along this narrow path... the more narrow it becomes. The more narrow it becomes... the more easily one can stray off the path. But progression shouldn't be feared. It should be embraced.

When I began to interpret tongues or employ the gift of knowledge, it was scary. My biggest fear was, "What if I'm wrong?" I learned to abandon that fear long ago. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I pray God correct me and bring me around. But I will not stand still refusing to experience the spiritual realities that are ready and waiting for the saints of God.

Sadly... that makes me rather controversial in most conventional churches today. LOL

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Agreed. There can be a thin line. You'll notice that the further you get along this narrow path... the more narrow it becomes. The more narrow it becomes... the more easily one can stray off the path. But progression shouldn't be feared. It should be embraced.

When I began to interpret tongues or employ the gift of knowledge, it was scary. My biggest fear was, "What if I'm wrong?" I learned to abandon that fear long ago. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I pray God correct me and bring me around. But I will not stand still refusing to experience the spiritual realities that are ready and waiting for the saints of God.

Sadly... that makes me rather controversial in most conventional churches today. LOL

How would you know if you were wrong on an interpretation of tongues?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Does this mean that the spiritually mature can produce doctrines that don't 'need any text on it'? sounds like a really slippery slope...

Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I'd not go that far and say that they need no text on it.

I'd say that they must provide a text from which the implication can be drawn.

For example... do you believe in residual "divine energies" (for lack of a better term) that can reside on physical objects?

The Bible doesn't specifically say that these exist. However, I do believe in them. Why? I draw the implication from Scripture.

When the lady received a healing for the issue of blood we read...

Mark 5:30
And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

We also read when the masses were healed...

Luke 6:19
And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.

That word, "virtue", is the Greek, "dunamis". It means,

1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its
nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

It is what many ancient Christians called the "divine energy". It flows from the very essence of God's own nature, through believers. The closest thing to modern jargon that we use for the same thing is the term, "power of the anointing". Different words... same ancient concept really.

But can this divine energy be infused in a physical object? I believe it is implied... we read regarding the handkerchiefs used by Paul that,

Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

The "anointing" or "divine energy" that emanated from Paul was soaked up into the very physical properties of those handkerchiefs. They became spiritual weapons, spiritual grenades if you will, that could be deployed against the enemy and sickness.

Also we read in the OT about a curious event...

2 Kings 13:21 (KJV)
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Notice... the body of this dead man touched the bones of Elijah (years after Elijah's death) and the residual power (divine energy) residing in Elijah's bones regenerated the man and brought him back to life. The very same divine energy that resided in Elijah's bones was absorbed into and resided in the handkerchiefs of Paul.

Thus ANY physical object can be infused with divine energy and put to sacred use. This is to "sanctify" something.

While I have absolutely NO verse specifically teaching about the "divine energy"... I can clearly see it and draw it out by the Scripture's implications. Thus ability to sanctify an element and infuse it with the virtue of divine energy opens up an entire world of spiritual realities that are typically denied... if not outright feared by fundamentalists who live and die on the "letter" of the Bible and cannot see Spiritual implications.

The very same "virtue" that departed from Christ to heal the masses permeated the Apostle Paul and was absorbed into the handkerchiefs he used. That very same "virtue" of God also flowed through Elijah and residual remnants of that power remained in Elijah's bones years after his death. Enough power (virtue) to physically regenerate the dead.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How would you know if you were wrong on an interpretation of tongues?

I'm assuming that you haven't interpreted tongues before.

I'll share an example of what I experience with interpreting tongues...

It's an interpretation not a translation. For example, once I "interpreted" tongues and the feeling of the message conveyed in Spirit stuck with me long after the service. While driving home I realized that I could have worded my interpretation of the Spirit's message better. The interpreter is often limited by their own vocabulary and ability to convey a thought.

So, on that occasion... I was slightly off because I realized that my interpretation could have been better.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Have you ever interpreted tongues? I'll share an example of what I experienced here...

It's an interpretation not a translation. For example, once I "interpreted" tongues and the feeling of the message conveyed in Spirit stuck with me long after the service. While driving home I realized that I could have worded my interpretation of the Spirit's message better. The interpreter is often limited by their own vocabulary and ability to convey a thought.

So, on that occasion... I was slightly off because I realized that my interpretation could have been better.

I mean, how would you know if you were completely off or not? A feeling? Is there any way to judge whether an interpretation given in the meeting is correct or not? Any way for the rest of the church to judge?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I mean, how would you know if you were completely off or not? A feeling? Is there any way to judge whether an interpretation given in the meeting is correct or not? Any way for the rest of the church to judge?

If I felt I was completely off, it would trouble me. The emotion and message behind the utterance just wouldn't match in my mind with the interpretation I gave.

If someone with the gift of interpretation feels that something is off...those who have the gift of interpretation can share among themselves their distinct interpretations. Often the Spirit will bear witness to who was closest to what the Spirit was saying. Sometimes one might get far more than the others out of a message in tongues. I know a guy who received a 20 minute interpretation from just three to four syllables spoken in tongues.

As a dad, I explain it like this. Parents can hear their baby cry from across a room. They can normally sense if the cry is because the child is hungry, cold, uncomfortable, trying to go potty, scared, in pain, sick, or just wanting to be held. It's a lot like that. The child's cries don't make any linguistic sense... but you "feel" what they mean in the core of your being. For me... interpreting tongues is like that.

So little Johnny cries, "Waaaa...awa...awa...awa..."

A seasoned parent can sense or "feel" the interpretation...

"Mommy, Daddy... I'm starving. I need milk. I need milk. I need milk."

The other parent might interpret it differently...

"Hey, guys, I'm hungry. I want food."

A third parent might be waaaaayyyyy off with the interpretation... because she's feeling chilled she imposes her own feelings onto the cry...

"Awwww...I'm cold mommy. Cover me up."

Notice... they are interpretations based on feelings relating to the cry. None is an exact translation. One interpretation is even clouded by personal thoughts and feelings.

Also note... Johnny's feelings and message is always right... even if the parents are wrong or adding too much verbiage.

[Aquila]

Esaias,

So, I hope the "divine energies" example helped you to see how one can Scripturally draw an "implication" from Scripture without having exact text on it. While you don't have to agree... Can you see where one might walk away believing that there is a divine power, energy, virtue, or whatever one might call it, that can flow out from a person filled with God... into a physical object?

I'm curious. Because if so, I'm going to take it to another level.