Essential Goal of Christianity???

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Pursuing the spirit of love and allowing righteousness to flow from the spirit of love is an act of 'human will and effort'.

God's 'goal' is to have a people who express his nature and character for eternity. Man messed up, so therefore God redeems man, transforms him by his power. The transformation is not yet complete (and will not be complete until Judgement Day. And the transformation of man is itself only the beginning of God's purposes for mankind.

God is not interested in any 'evolution of man's consciousness' or any such thing. There is no evolution about it. There is transformation. It is abrupt and sudden - conversion is an abrupt, sudden, 'crisis experience'. Regeneration is an abrupt, sudden 'crisis experience'. Resurrection will most definitely be an 'abrupt, sudden, crisis experience'. And Judgement Day will without question be an abrupt, sudden, crisis experience for all mankind.

pursuing and allowing can also be construed as the work of god if he is the initiator and motivator. your second paragraph is utter nonsense. paul talks about being babes in christ, growing to the fulness and stature of christ, renewing the mind etc all of these imply a growth in awareness, knowledge, wisdom or evolution of consciousness.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Esaias

They did not have the Spirit of Christ and they did not express the biblical definition of love. Here is how we know if anyone loves God -

Deu 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deu 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

and what are his commandments? to love god and love your neighbor as yourself is to fulfill the law. read the thread and stop repeating jibberish.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

They did not have the Spirit of Christ and they did not express the biblical definition of love. Here is how we know if anyone loves God -

Deu 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deu 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

The above statements would be with regards to the Law given to Israel, not necessarily to the NT church.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Let's look closely at Christ's point in this passage... Jesus continues on through chapter 15...

John 15:7-12 (ESV)
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Christ's commandments to the church are distinctly related to the universal law of loving God with all one's being... and demonstrating that love by loving others.

1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

John actually explains this well...

2 John 1:4-6 (ESV)
4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. 5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

It's all about loving God and loving others. No legalistic requirements are set down.

[Aquila]

So in short... if one loves God with all of their being... they will demonstrate that love by loving others as themselves in a sacrificial manner that reflects Christ's own love.

[Aquila]

Now... a legalist will seek to list every possible teaching and commandment Jesus ever spoke and require that of the believer. However, what they fail to see is that Jesus lived and taught... under the Law. Many things that Jesus expounded upon and commanded were with relation to His audience living under the Law. So one has to be VERY VERY careful in trying to map out Christ's "commandments" in a legalistic manner.

The Law of Christ:

1.) Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength...
2.) Love others as yourself.

These two laws are universal in any and every possible context and/or circumstance.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

and what are his commandments? to love god and love your neighbor as yourself is to fulfill the law. read the thread and stop repeating jibberish.

Jibberish?

Nice.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The above statements would be with regards to the Law given to Israel, not necessarily to the NT church.

I quoted Jesus speaking to his disciples, he affirmed the truth that if we love Him we will keep his commandments. Is He not God?

Let's look closely at Christ's point in this passage... Jesus continues on through chapter 15...

John 15:7-12 (ESV)
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Christ's commandments to the church are distinctly related to the universal law of loving God with all one's being... and demonstrating that love by loving others.

The scriptures I posted show HOW to love God. Simply saying 'love God and your neighbor' explains nothing.

To love our neighbor one does not murder, bear false witness against them, covet their stuff, commit adultery, steal, etc etc. In other words, the commandments of God relating to our interactions with other people define how 'love' works itself out in various situations and under various circumstances. The commandments of God give us the best, most expedient and wisest manner of 'loving God and our neighbor'. Thus, it is written 'love is the fulfilling of the law'.

This does not mean we can 'love' and do away with God's commandments. If it did, we could 'love our neighbor' and yet commit adultery. Adultery is a sin because God said it is a sin. Why did He say it is forbidden? Because it is not an act of LOVE, it is an act of selfishness.

Rom 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here Paul expressly declares and teaches what I just said - that the commandments of God are comprehended in the saying 'love they neighbor'. Love is not a replacement for the commandments of God, they are part and parcel of love.

It's all about loving God and loving others. No legalistic requirements are set down.

What is with this bandying of the terms 'legalistic' and 'legalism' whenever the commandments of God are mentioned? Legalism is not even a biblical word.

Legalism means one of two things - either it means attempting to be justified under the terms of the old covenant (which will not happen for anyone), or it is a term used erroneously as an emotive slogan in opposition to any call for actual and/or specific obedience.

Is it not commanded that we love our neighbor? Then how is THAT itself not 'legalism', if by legalism is meant a demand for obedience to a command of God?

All the commandments, statutes, judgements, and ordinances of God can be related to the 'Big Ten'. They serve as 'explanatory' dicta on those 'Big Ten'. And the Big Ten teach us how to love God and to love our neighbor.

God did not leave it to us to just figure out what is expected, otherwise everyone would have occasion to complain against God on the basis of equity at the Judgement. 'You said love your neighbor, the woman was my neighbor, I loved her, we slept together. How can I be guilty of anything?'

To which God may justly reply, 'It's spelled out for you, it's called FORNICATION and it is identified in the Word as SIN (aka CRIME).'

God will not say 'well, you have this in-built sense of right and wrong, and you should have listened to your inner voice', because the hypothetical fornicator may very well say in reply 'my inner voice said only that she was sweet and beautiful and she wants me and I want her and no harm no foul!!!!!'

Man by his wisdom did not know God. Nor does man by his wisdom know what love actually is. Thus the need for Revelation, ie the Word, and the public display of the Word in action in the life of Jesus Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

. your second paragraph is utter nonsense. paul talks about being babes in christ, growing to the fulness and stature of christ, renewing the mind etc all of these imply a growth in awareness, knowledge, wisdom or evolution of consciousness.

So, all humans 'evolve' from child to adult?

Talk about 'utter nonsense'. GROWTH and 'evolution' are not the same thing.

But anyway, I leave you to your 'jibberish'.

[Dedicated Mind]

Man by his wisdom did not know God. Nor does man by his wisdom know what love actually is. Thus the need for Revelation, ie the Word, and the public display of the Word in action in the life of Jesus Christ.

i am not denying the importance of the bible, but man's wisdom did play a role in the writing of the bible. inspired word of god is not the same as dictated word of god. so we are relying in part on man's definition of love when we read the bible with the aid of god. but the essence of love which is selfless giving, is not unique to christianity. there is the yoga of love in hinduism, the path of the bodhistava in budhism. the sufi way of love in islam. a strong ethic of devotion in shinto. i have not studied all of these paths, but i would doubt that you have either, so to claim that the bible has the exclusive claim on the definition of love is a bit premature. love is a universal truth that exists with or without religious exposition.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

i am not denying the importance of the bible, but man's wisdom did play a role in the writing of the bible. inspired word of god is not the same as dictated word of god. so we are relying in part on man's definition of love when we read the bible with the aid of god. but the essence of love which is selfless giving, is not unique to christianity. there is the yoga of love in hinduism, the path of the bodhistava in budhism. the sufi way of love in islam. a strong ethic of devotion in shinto. i have not studied all of these paths, but i would doubt that you have either, so to claim that the bible has the exclusive claim on the definition of love is a bit premature. love is a universal truth that exists with or without religious exposition.

That Inspiration is not Dictation does NOT in turn mean it was written by Man's wisdom

BTW the bible does not actually say it was inspired. Rather it was God breathed

Further Paul argues what the preached was NOT man's wisdom

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 But, we speak wisdom among those who are perfect; yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, that come to nothing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;


1Co 2:12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.