Sinful housework

[Luke]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Ask Jesus. Ask Paul. I don't know. I didn't make the rule book.

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The spirit was given to us to mortify the deeds of the body, so obviously something is not completely, totally dead. However, if the Spirit reigns in our life, the law of sin doesn't, and we can live above recurrent fallen sin, but we must be aware of the attacks of our flesh nature or satan to try to make us stumble and fall.... and so therefore we are given the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the body" and by doing so, we shall live.

I love that verse like many other verses in the bible it does not mean a daily death but a one time event. Look at the meaning of the word mortify:

Thayer's dictionary G2289

I.to put to death
II.metaph.

A.to make to die i.e. destroy, render extinct

B.by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something)

There is no daily death here rather. I agree that a christian still has a sinful nature but that same christian needs to be sanctified but when that christian gets sanctified they do not have a carnal nature.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Paul also says this,

Romans 7:24-25 "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

Our minds, spirit and soul serve the Lord, while our flesh nature remains in the hold of sin, and it is a warfare, but through the spirit of Jesus Christ, we can mortify the deeds of the body, and continue serving the law of God.

I agree that after we are saved and before we are sanctified we are in a Romans 7 experience but let a man/woman get snactified and they will move from a Romans 7 experience to a Romans 8 experience( GLORY). They will go from groaning Romans 7:25 to shouting Romans 8:2!!!!!

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Thayer's dictionary G1659

I.to make free

II.set at liberty: from the dominion of sin


Strong's dictionary G1659

From G1658; to liberate, that is, (figuratively) to exempt (from moral,
ceremonial or mortal liability): -deliver, make free.


In chapter 8 I am freed and liberated from what had me bound in chapter 7. (GLORY)

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Brother Luke,

I don't doubt that you are walking without sin. To me this is normal for a Christian. But if there is no warfare why this?

3 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Eph. 6:13-18

Paul seems to be interested in equipping the saints for battle!

Now if you are overcoming (which I don't doubt) you must be availing yourself of the things Paul speaks of here.

As there are clichés among the Evangelical faith that I don't take seriously like "we all sin every day" there are probably among some "Holiness" groups. Such as "There is no daily battle".

I agree that there is a battle every day with the world and the devil (which is the specific foe mentioned in the passage you mentioned) but these are forces from without attempting to break through and get in. Whereas if i still retain my carnal nature then there is an enemy with in and a traitor that seeks to open the gates and allow the devil and the world in.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree that there is a battle every day with the world and the devil (which is the specific foe mentioned in the passage you mentioned) but these are forces from without attempting to break through and get in. Whereas if i still retain my carnal nature then there is an enemy with in and a traitor that seeks to open the gates and allow the devil and the world in.

OH!! Now I think I finally get what you're trying to say.

[renee819]

Luke wrote,

As to the first part of your comment yes i am saying that some christians are not entirerly sanctified. Entire sanctification is a second work of grace performed by God whereby the christian is made holy in an instant

Luke, How did you know that you were made holy in an instant?

To my question as to where in the Bible you find a 'second work of grace?"

Luke wrote,

As to it in the Bible being called specificly a second grace many will point to:

2 Corinthians 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;

Because the word translated benefit has it first and primary meaning as Grace

.

Luke, is that the only scripture that those that teach, “the second work of grace” have to go on?
Paul is coming to them, the second time. And Paul can not give them “the second work of grace.”
He is talking to Christians, so they already have the Holy Ghost. What benefit can he give them? He can only pray for them to receive a 'gift of the spirit.”
as he says in this scripture,...

Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

And now to the scripture that you gave.

2 Corinthians 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
:16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea

.

Second----English Words used in KJV:
second 34
the second time + <G1537> 4
the second time 4
again + <G1537> 2
again 1
secondarily 1
afterward 1
[Total Count: 47]
..
as the comparative of <G1417> (duo); (ordinal) second (in time, place or rank; also adverbial) :- afterward, again, second (-arily, time).

Benefit-----from <G5463> (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

gift----from <G5483> (chazorimai); a (divine) gratuity, i.e. deliverance (from danger or passion); (special) a (spiritual) endowment, i.e. (subject) religious qualification, or (objective) miraculous faculty :- (free) gift.
..
I believe that Paul is saying here, that he wanted to come to them the second time, to give them some benefit, which according to other scriptures, would mean that he would pray for them to receive one of the spiritual gifts. As he told Timothy,...

1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Again he reminds Timothy,...

2 Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

This is the only 'benefit” that Paul can give them. When he comes the second time, he can not give them any 'second work of grace.”

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Luke

I love that verse like many other verses in the bible it does not mean a daily death but a one time event. Look at the meaning of the word mortify:

Thayer's dictionary G2289

I.to put to death
II.metaph.

A.to make to die i.e. destroy, render extinct

B.by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something)

There is no daily death here rather. I agree that a christian still has a sinful nature but that same christian needs to be sanctified but when that christian gets sanctified they do not have a carnal nature.

The scripture says "mortify the DEEDS of the body".... indicating that there is more than one event, the word "deeds" is plural... meaning that it is not a one-time event to take it all out, but an event that can occur multiple times.

I do believe we can win battles... but we haven't yet won the war against our carnal nature.

Here is a pictorial illustration for my point. A country goes to war against another country, and captives are taken. These captives are now subject to the will of the captors. However, while they are captive, they are not submitted, and completely won over to their captors. They obey most of the time, but are constantly looking for a way of escape. They may be obedient, but not submissive. At any given moment, they are looking for a way to rebel, to uprise, and to escape their captivity.

Looking at this allegory, and putting our flesh and spirit into the equation.... Once the Spirit of Christ comes into our heart, the flesh is no longer reigning. It is in remission, or in obedience to the spirit. But that same flesh is not submitted. It is constantly looking for areas and ways to rise up, rebel, and expose itself, to regain its freedom.

That is why Paul says we must "mortify the deeds of the body", we must constantly be on guard against its attack, even though yes, the spirit is reigning. The flesh is captive, and subdued, but it is not destroyed. The flesh has not yet been put to death, which is an event that will take place upon the time we die, or attain our glorified bodies.

As I was praying this morning, this is how the Lord showed it to me, to best describe the battle, and the war that wages in us.

As the spirit reigns, we can lead overcoming, victorious, glorious Romans 8 power-filled lives, but we cannot let down our guard against the enemy of our flesh that has not yet been destroyed... subdued yes... destroyed no.

We have just been given the *earnest* of our inheritance, and its full reward will not become ours until we have completely overcome in the day that we receive our glorified bodies. That is our hope. That is why we fight the fight of faith.

[Aquila]

As long as one has un-glorified flesh, they will deal with it's fallen tendencies and impulses. The nature of your sinful flesh hasn't changed. Now, the "spirit"... the "inner man"... has had a complete change of nature through the born again believer's union with God through the Holy Spirit. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. Thus the spirit is regenerated and has a new nature... but the flesh hasn't. Therefore, there is often a war between one's flesh and their spirit when it comes to carnal temptations and/or desires. We progressively overcome these things as we grow in Christ and learn to walk after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the flesh. In doing this we grow in sanctification and become more Christ-like, being conformed into His image day by day. Yes, a believer can overcome sin and go a day without sinning. It is possible. The idea that one cannot go a day without sinning isn't biblical. However, throughout the believer's life they will discover that the carnal fallen nature of the flesh is alive and well. Rather it be falling into sins of immorality or sins of character, they will discover that the flesh is a force to be subdued daily through the Spirit. They may very well fall into sin. And if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. When a born again believer falls into sin the inner man is at odds with the action. Thus, there is deep shame, guilt, sense of condemnation, and it can progress into deep depression. This is because the inner man has no joy in the carnal deeds of the flesh. When one confesses their sin and turns back to walking in the Spirit, they experience joy and peace. The inner man (the spirit), the soul (their mind), and the deeds of their body are back in alignment.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As long as one has un-glorified flesh, they will deal with it's fallen tendencies and impulses. The nature of your sinful flesh hasn't changed. Now, the "spirit"... the "inner man"... has had a complete change of nature through the born again believer's union with God through the Holy Spirit. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. Thus the spirit is regenerated and has a new nature... but the flesh hasn't. Therefore, there is often a war between one's flesh and their spirit when it comes to carnal temptations and/or desires. We progressively overcome these things as we grow in Christ and learn to walk after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the flesh. In doing this we grow in sanctification and become more Christ-like, being conformed into His image day by day. Yes, a believer can overcome sin and go a day without sinning. It is possible. The idea that one cannot go a day without sinning isn't biblical. However, throughout the believer's life they will discover that the carnal fallen nature of the flesh is alive and well. Rather it be falling into sins of immorality or sins of character, they will discover that the flesh is a force to be subdued daily through the Spirit. They may very well fall into sin. And if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. When a born again believer falls into sin the inner man is at odds with the action. Thus, there is deep shame, guilt, sense of condemnation, and it can progress into deep depression. This is because the inner man has no joy in the carnal deeds of the flesh. When one confesses their sin and turns back to walking in the Spirit, they experience joy and peace. The inner man (the spirit), the soul (their mind), and the deeds of their body are back in alignment.

Amen. Right on.

[Abiding Now]

A little something to consider.

John wrote this to Believers, about 60 years AFTER Pentecost. Notice that he INCLUDED HIMSELF!

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[shazeep]

Thanks guys! Good reading. I've meditated many hours on this subject; which led me to post 'Can one sin in Heaven?' quite a while back. While it should be obvious that there is no sin in Heaven, the post meant to get into our free will there; does 'no sin' mean that our free will is curtailed? I don't think we become robots in our glorified bodies; so what happens? Couldn't get to a satisfactory answer on my own.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

A little something to consider.

John wrote this to Believers, about 60 years AFTER Pentecost. Notice that he INCLUDED HIMSELF!

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Many quote this scripture in opposition to ther teaching that a born again believer is able to live without sin:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 1:8

Standing alone and out of context it looks to be true. However lets look at the wider context and we will see a different meaning.

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. John 1:5-8

The problem comes because most do not percieve that verse 8 is referring back to verse 6. John was addressing a specific problem among believers. That some were claiming they were having fellowship (being in touch with God) with God yet they were walking in darkness.

They were commiting some sin yet they thought they were still in fellowship with the Lord. This was the lie. When one is stuck in a sin and refuses to admit it they lie to themselves and become convinced they are still in fellowship with Jesus.

Verse 7 is telling them (or us as it may be) that if we will come back into the light the blood of Jesus will cleanse them from all sin.

Verse 8 then returns to the same point as verse 6.

That being, if one trys to cover their sin and does not admit their true condition they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them.

Verse 9 tells how to break the deception and be cleansed of the sin. Instead of saying "I am not in sin" or "I have no sin" we are to confess the sin and be forgiven by Christ.

Verse 10 is further admonition to confess and agree with God that sin has affected the relationship between God and the offender. If confession and repentance does not happen the person is disagreeing with God. In his deception he thinks God is still blessing him and showing him favor. In effect he is calling God a liar.

So please understand. When John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" it was not written to say the average believer could never be without sin.

Obviously this would be a contradiction to other statements by the same apostle in the same book!

For instance:

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 2:1

Here John plainy tells believers to sin not. It would certainly be confusing if the same apostle who tells people to "sin not" would tell the same people that if they said they had no sin they were liars and the truth was not in them as if it could not be done!

He simply adds that IF not even when but IF you sin you can be forgiven by God through Jesus Christ.

Again a few verses later the matter of who it is that is deceived comes again into focus.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says if we say we know him and do NOT keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us!

So IN CONTEXT we can see this is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE message that many are getting out of the apostles writing. Most today think if you say you are not commiting sin YOU are the liar.

Johns real meaning was that those who say they are in fellowship with God and are not keeping his commands (commiting sin) are those who are liars and deceived!

Here are a few more examples from other apostles that if John were telling Christians they were deceived if they thought they were living without sin would be contradictions.

Apostle Paul:

15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

He tells the saints to sin not. He says the exact thing John said in 1 John 2:1

Apostle Peter:

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2 Peter 2:14

Peter mentions those who cannot cease from sin in quite a negative light! If he reproves souls who cannot stop sinning he must have believed they COULD STOP SINNING!

So friend it seems all the apostles taught we could walk without sin.
One more example from Johns writings:

2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:5-6

So in conclusion when John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" he is focusing on those WHO ACTUALLY DO have sin in their lives and instead of confessing it are holding on to it.

THEY my friends are the ones who his admonition is meant for. He was not trying to say that obedient saints who were actually keeping the Lords word were deceived for doing what he himself had told them to do.

It was simply showing that we are to confess if indeed we have sinned instead of trying to cover our sins. That would only lead to deception.

Hope this helps! Peace, Mike