Sinful housework

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many quote this scripture in opposition to ther teaching that a born again believer is able to live without sin:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 1:8

Standing alone and out of context it looks to be true. However lets look at the wider context and we will see a different meaning.

1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. John 1:5-8

The problem comes because most do not percieve that verse 8 is referring back to verse 6. John was addressing a specific problem among believers. That some were claiming they were having fellowship (being in touch with God) with God yet they were walking in darkness.

They were commiting some sin yet they thought they were still in fellowship with the Lord. This was the lie. When one is stuck in a sin and refuses to admit it they lie to themselves and become convinced they are still in fellowship with Jesus.

Verse 7 is telling them (or us as it may be) that if we will come back into the light the blood of Jesus will cleanse them from all sin.

Verse 8 then returns to the same point as verse 6.

That being, if one trys to cover their sin and does not admit their true condition they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them.

Verse 9 tells how to break the deception and be cleansed of the sin. Instead of saying "I am not in sin" or "I have no sin" we are to confess the sin and be forgiven by Christ.

Verse 10 is further admonition to confess and agree with God that sin has affected the relationship between God and the offender. If confession and repentance does not happen the person is disagreeing with God. In his deception he thinks God is still blessing him and showing him favor. In effect he is calling God a liar.

So please understand. When John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" it was not written to say the average believer could never be without sin.

Obviously this would be a contradiction to other statements by the same apostle in the same book!

For instance:

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 2:1

Here John plainy tells believers to sin not. It would certainly be confusing if the same apostle who tells people to "sin not" would tell the same people that if they said they had no sin they were liars and the truth was not in them as if it could not be done!

He simply adds that IF not even when but IF you sin you can be forgiven by God through Jesus Christ.

Again a few verses later the matter of who it is that is deceived comes again into focus.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says if we say we know him and do NOT keep his commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us!

So IN CONTEXT we can see this is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE message that many are getting out of the apostles writing. Most today think if you say you are not commiting sin YOU are the liar.

Johns real meaning was that those who say they are in fellowship with God and are not keeping his commands (commiting sin) are those who are liars and deceived!

Here are a few more examples from other apostles that if John were telling Christians they were deceived if they thought they were living without sin would be contradictions.

Apostle Paul:

15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

He tells the saints to sin not. He says the exact thing John said in 1 John 2:1

Apostle Peter:

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2 Peter 2:14

Peter mentions those who cannot cease from sin in quite a negative light! If he reproves souls who cannot stop sinning he must have believed they COULD STOP SINNING!

So friend it seems all the apostles taught we could walk without sin.
One more example from Johns writings:

2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:5-6

So in conclusion when John says "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" he is focusing on those WHO ACTUALLY DO have sin in their lives and instead of confessing it are holding on to it.

THEY my friends are the ones who his admonition is meant for. He was not trying to say that obedient saints who were actually keeping the Lords word were deceived for doing what he himself had told them to do.

It was simply showing that we are to confess if indeed we have sinned instead of trying to cover our sins. That would only lead to deception.

Hope this helps! Peace, Mike

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Well IF the sinful nature is eradicated on this earth, I'm in deep trouble.

No your not rather you have been given a great promise.

[shazeep]

ya be ye perfect is misunderstood, not unattainable, imo. Aquila, great answer!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

No your not rather you have been given a great promise.

Amen. You can overcome it, in Christ. It just takes lots of pain, that's all
MtD, that's a framer!

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Amen. You can overcome it, in Christ. It just takes lots of pain, that's all

God removes it and gives us a lot of Joy.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Luke

When I am preparing my garden plot for the next spring planting there will usually be weeds that need to be killed so i get out my round up and spray multiple weeds at the same time thus destroying and killing the weeds (plural) all at the same time.

I think it remains a plural event that can take place more than once, but we are all entitled to our opinions, and our personal interpretations. What matters the most is that our hearts are clean and pure before the Lord, and that we don't treat too carelessly our "garden plot", but tend it as carefully and best we know how. I would never "round up" my garden, because that kills all things, both good and bad. There are better ways to kill weeds than round up. But... you are entitled to your own opinion, and your own garden... so I'll leave you to tend yours, while I tend mine

Originally Posted by Luke

The flesh cannot be in subjection to God:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Subjection of the flesh is not what is promised but rather destruction and liberty is both offered and promised in this life:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Great scriptures. I believe we are freed from the taskmaster of sin, but yet, that nature is not completely dead yet. I've not ever met a perfect man without sin, but Jesus is the only perfect man to have ever lived... which is why your analogy sounds good... but doesn't ring true.

I still like my analogy better... of a captive nature under a different ruler, but still not submitted... but again... I won't push what I think onto you. It remains a personal interpretation... and I'm content to let you "round up" your garden, while I till and pull, and constantly watch over, and tend carefully my garden... and let the Lord be the final judge....

[Aquila]

Here's something to ponder... God is love. That means that God's very substance and essence is... "love". Yes, God is "holy"... but the Bible doesn't say that God is "holiness". Therefore all admonitions to be holy are predicated upon... love. Thus, love is holy. And holiness is "lovingness". I believe that at the end of the day we will be judged not on what church we attended, not on what our pet doctrines were, not on dress codes, not on dietary codes, not on the sacramental traditions we've embraced, not on holidays celebrated, not on family pedigree, nor even as to how "moral" we were by popular opinion ... we'll be judged in accordance to love...

Did we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength?
Did we demonstrate this love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

I believe that when our life on earth is reviewed... these two questions will be asked regarding it all. If our actions and thoughts were predicated upon our love for God and our love for others... we will be rewarded. If not... we will suffer shame and loss.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's something to ponder... God is love. That means that God's very substance and essence is... "love". Yes, God is "holy"... but the Bible doesn't say that God is "holiness". Therefore all admonitions to be holy are predicated upon... love. Thus, love is holy. And holiness is "lovingness". I believe that at the end of the day we will be judged not on what church we attended, not on what our pet doctrines were, not on dress codes, not on dietary codes, not on the sacramental traditions we've embraced, not on holidays celebrated, not on family pedigree, nor even as to how "moral" we were by popular opinion ... we'll be judged in accordance to love...

Did we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength?
Did we demonstrate this love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

I believe that when our life on earth is reviewed... these two questions will be asked regarding it all. If our actions and thoughts were predicated upon our love for God and our love for others... we will be rewarded. If not... we will suffer shame and loss.

Yes and amen. Let us strive to have HIS LOVE in all things that we do.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's something to ponder... God is love. That means that God's very substance and essence is... "love". Yes, God is "holy"... but the Bible doesn't say that God is "holiness". Therefore all admonitions to be holy are predicated upon... love. Thus, love is holy. And holiness is "lovingness". I believe that at the end of the day we will be judged not on what church we attended, not on what our pet doctrines were, not on dress codes, not on dietary codes, not on the sacramental traditions we've embraced, not on holidays celebrated, not on family pedigree, nor even as to how "moral" we were by popular opinion ... we'll be judged in accordance to love...

Did we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength?
Did we demonstrate this love for Him by loving others as ourselves?

I believe that when our life on earth is reviewed... these two questions will be asked regarding it all. If our actions and thoughts were predicated upon our love for God and our love for others... we will be rewarded. If not... we will suffer shame and loss.

Shame and loss?

Take a look what happens if we have not love.

Matt 25:41-46

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

They are cast into Gehenna fire.

It seems the trend nowadays is to minimize anything to do with the wrath of God. Those who do not keep Jesus commands do NOT love Jesus.

They shall certainly not enter the Kingdom of God.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

If we are presently stepping over any of his commands we need to be giving our whole attention to getting it right.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Shame and loss?

Take a look what happens if we have not love.

Matt 25:41-46

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

They are cast into Gehenna fire.

It seems the trend nowadays is to minimize anything to do with the wrath of God. Those who do not keep Jesus commands do NOT love Jesus.

They shall certainly not enter the Kingdom of God.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

If we are presently stepping over any of his commands we need to be giving our whole attention to getting it right.

Bro. Michael... the measure with which you judge is the measure which you must meet. I believe in varying degrees of reward in eternity. And I believe that every commandment of the law and of Christ is summed up in two.

-Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
-Demonstrate that love for God by loving others as yourself.

The rest is just commentary in various contexts.