Are Jehovahs Witnesses Saved?

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

And I sure couldn't care less what the catholic church thinks about ANYTHING.

Interesting. They are who decided what your bible would look like, more or less, with revisions through the years.

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Admitted, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you're correct about one thing, my faith tells me Jesus was right when He said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against His church, so me being a literalist, I just take it as an absolute.

You are therefore a true believer. Doesn't much matter that no one named "Matthew" actually wrote the gospel of Matthew, but matters only that someone said this is what Matthew said, and all that about 90 or 100 years after Jesus. Enjoy your belief.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If you read the context of the discussion he said HE IS THE FATHER. He said unless you believe that you will die in sin. The text say thery understood NOT he spoke of the Father. So even tho they understood not....he still said what he said.

WOW.. the context was explained by Jesus when he said the same that I said to you from the beginning. He didn't claim to be the Father from the beginning. If he did please show me where.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by jfrog

WOW.. the context was explained by Jesus when he said the same that I said to you from the beginning. He didn't claim to be the Father from the beginning. If he did please show me where.

Isaiah 9:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Does everlasting count as the beginning?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

WHY would I care what "rest of the world (or you ) thinks "prevailed" means"? And I sure couldn't care less what the catholic church thinks about ANYTHING. Admitted, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you're correct about one thing, my faith tells me Jesus was right when He said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against His church, so me being a literalist, I just take it as an absolute.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I don't mean to be rude here but that is a false understanding of what Jesus was teaching. Trinitarians have tried to make that same argument, but it has nothing to do with there always being a church.

What Jesus is saying is related to death (gates of hell), not some fiery domain of a pitched fork Satan.

It means that Death has no hold over us. We will prevail over death because of the blood of the lamb

Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Interesting. They are who decided what your bible would look like, more or less, with revisions through the years.



You are therefore a true believer. Doesn't much matter that no one named "Matthew" actually wrote the gospel of Matthew, but matters only that someone said this is what Matthew said, and all that about 90 or 100 years after Jesus. Enjoy your belief.

And that it says "The Gospel of Matthew"...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Isaiah 9:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Does everlasting count as the beginning?

Michael claimed his prooftext for making the deity of Jesus a salvation issue was John 8:23-25. Sadly John 8:23-25 only has Jesus claiming to be the messiah. Since a person can believe Jesus is the messiah without understanding that being the messiah makes Jesus God then I'd say Michael's prooftext doesn't prove what he mistakenly thought it did.

In John 8:25 Jesus said he was the same person that he had previously been claiming he was since he began saying who he was. So the question is who did Jesus claim he was since he began to say who he was? The bible is clear, he claimed to be the messiah. Bringing Isaiah 9:6 into this doesn't change that even if you believe it shows the messiah is God. You see, just because the messiah is shown to be God in other places doesn't imply that one must understand the messiah is God in order to be saved. A man can believe Jesus is the messiah and also be totally wrong or ignorant on many important details regarding the messiah.

I guess since we have no list of what someone needs to believe about the messiah in order to be saved it's hard to really declare what the cutoff point for salvation is when it comes to what details about the messiah are salvational.

[Michael The Disciple]

You see, just because the messiah is shown to be God in other places doesn't imply that one must understand the messiah is God in order to be saved. A man can believe Jesus is the messiah and also be totally wrong or ignorant on many important details regarding the messiah.

Not so.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

The doctrine of Christ is that Christ is the Father and the Son. See Isaiah 9:6.

A video I made a while back. This will be helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgjxQ...eature=mh_lolz

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Not so.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

The doctrine of Christ is that Christ is the Father and the Son. See Isaiah 9:6.

A video I made a while back. This will be helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgjxQ...eature=mh_lolz

LOL. more assumptions. No where is the doctrine of Christ defined as believing in the deity of Christ

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't mean to be rude here but that is a false understanding of what Jesus was teaching. Trinitarians have tried to make that same argument, but it has nothing to do with there always being a church.

What Jesus is saying is related to death (gates of hell), not some fiery domain of a pitched fork Satan.

It means that Death has no hold over us. We will prevail over death because of the blood of the lamb

Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you, appreciate the response and I certainly do not see your answer as being rude, though I don't totally agree. As you know hell (hades) some times translate to the grave and sometimes "a place of departed souls, and a place of torment, remember the rich man in Luke 16 being in "torment (verse 23). Either way, the grave, as you pointed out or "place of departed souls" (hell) does not prevail against the church.

Strong's

hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Interesting. They are who decided what your bible would look like, more or less, with revisions through the years.



You are therefore a true believer. Doesn't much matter that no one named "Matthew" actually wrote the gospel of Matthew, but matters only that someone said this is what Matthew said, and all that about 90 or 100 years after Jesus. Enjoy your belief.

Thank you.