Is God fair?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Carl

Aquila, that is uncalled for. I've learned a lot on this forum during the years I've read your posts. We have the same God. You don't need to belittle me.
I've just recently begun to explore why I believe what I believe and have finally felt the liberty to question some things. I'm not as well read as others neither do I use big words like dichotomy or eschatology. I did not even get creative when choosing a "name" for this forum. I used one of my son's middle names. My real name is Bill.

Hey Bill, I'm Chris. I have no hard feelings and I didn't mean to offend. I was just responding to a statement. Let's read it again SLOWLY and really soak in what it's saying...

God does not have to have a complete blueprint with total control to be sovereign.

Ummm... no offense intended here... but... Hello??? LOL!

Does the book of Revelation only present a future as seen by God being a "divine fortune teller"? Or is the Revelation a revelation of what God has preordained and appointed to be so?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

According to you all of those who suffered did not suffer because of what they chose rather they had no choice in the matter and therefore simply suffered because they were created to suffer!

Not necessarily. You see, man is fallen and incapable of choosing anything but sin. Even the unregenerate person’s “religion” is self-serving and is therefore sin. Those who suffer judgment and are lost will be lost on account of their sinfulness. It’s their state. Their lot. And all men would share that lot without exception had God not chosen for Himself and elect remnant according to grace. They were not created to suffer any more than a Hindu child born in the heart of India who never heard the Gospel. It’s their condition before God.

Now, God does often call to the unregenerate to repent and change their ways, especially as a nation in the OT. And many times they suffered judgments that brought them to repentance. However, this was a national repentance, it doesn’t mean that every last Israelite was “saved” in the sense of receiving eternal salvation. On an individual level the rain falls on the just and the unjust. God often calls out in general to every soul to repent and believe. The elect receive not only an “outer call” to repent and believe… but also an “inner call”, a drawing of the Spirit. The unregenerate do not have the inner calling. In fact, this only testifies against them that in their fallen state they are entirely undeserving of salvation without the divine intervention seen in the elect.

At the end of the day… the lost are lost on account of their sin. It is the elect who should be eternally grateful for being called out of darkness into Christ’s marvelous light.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

As to not finding any example of people successfully going against the will of God in the bible i disagree. What about:

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:



Luke 13: 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

You will find that these admonitions stand to testify against the absolute fallen nature an inability to obey in the unregenerate. Therefore it is proven that God has judged justly when they indeed have been found entirely incapable of surrendering themselves to God’s authority. Also, some are viewed in context of judgments that brought an entire nation to repentance in the end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God indeed is longsuffering “to us-ward” (the elect), not willing that any should perish, but that all (of the elect) should come to repentance.

Now, some will read this the way you are reading this. While it expresses that God’s innate desire might be to save all men… both the more Reformed position and the Armenian position admit… not all will be saved. So, if God indeed wills that every last soul be saved, it is a general will. Not a declarative/operative will (unless one is universalist). So at the end of the day the Reformed believer will believe that although God wills that all men be saved in general, He has chosen only to save His elect. The Armenian must admit that although God wills that all men be saved in general, He has proven incapable of truly reaching all men as He so desires.

[Aquila]

After viewing the poll results, I've come to suspect that many don't know exactly what God being "fair" might imply. I praise God that He isn't "fair". I trust Him in that I knew that while He isn't "fair"... He is "just".

[Aquila]

One theological perspective is that the divine perspective, being eternal and sovereign in all glory creates what can only logically appear to be a contradiction to the limited human temporal perspective. Thus a significant degree of mystery must be accepted. While all things are indeed predestined... there is free will. While this may appear to be contradictory, from an eternal perspective it truly isn't. Thus both predestination and free will are truths to be embraced. How it all works... is subject to mere limited human theories.

All I know is that Saul's free will would have brought him to Damascus to persecute the church. God imposed His sovereign and almighty will on Saul, through an irresistible grace, in such a way as to bring Saul to the end of self, fully surrendered to the sovereign will of God. God wasn't a gentleman in this. Nor was God hoping or fretting over what Saul would choose. He was rather forceful, likening Saul unto an oxen who was kicking against the goads (a no win situation for the oxen). In this, one cannot disagree. God knows how to bring His elect to their knees in absolute surrender to accomplish His sovereign plan of redemption. God is not impotent, sometimes frowning on His failure to reach anyone. God always gets His man.

Some would have a God who would have merely hoped to save Saul and use him to spread and preach the Gospel. Some would have us believe that had Saul utterly refused, God would have had to choose a "plan B". Of course this brings up the question... was Saul a "plan B"? Could God have intended someone else to reach the Gentiles and they refuse? Might there have been Epistles that should have been written but, due to stubborn human will and refusal, they were not??? Soon... their entire framework degenerates into a chaos of absolute confusion with a very frustrated God in the middle holding His hands in the air just wishing and hoping for our best... leaving us entirely to our own devices, His sovereignty surrendered to our now almighty free will.

I have issues with that perspective.

[Aquila]

As men demand that man must have absolute free will... I proclaim an additional truth... God (to be sovereign, holy, just, creator, author, finisher, Alpha, Omega) must have free will also. That means... He alone is GOD, and none shall successfully thwart Him with regards to His predestined plan regarding mankind and His elect. Even Satan is subject to His will and power... only acting as God permits him to in accordance to God's preordained plans.

[Aquila]

Let's assume that a world leader determined to bring the world into a nuclear holocaust tomorrow in effort to destroy all life on earth within two hours. Would God allow that man's will to stand and thwart His entire redemptive plan as it concludes in the Revelation??? Would not God dispatch Holy Angels to war against the dark forces at work behind the man's decision? And would not God Himself bring the man to naught? Or... is man's free will so free that he might in fact sideline everything decreed in the book of Revelation? If man's will is so free, and God's sovereignty so surrendered (to make God a "gentleman"), how do we know that we've not already thwarted the divine plan and are living in a divergent man made reality this very hour? Is God "struggling" to fulfill what He has decreed for the conclusion of this dispensation???

Clearly the answer is obvious. God's will is sovereign and what He has declared to be will be. Regardless of the petty accusations and names we (His creations) might throw at Him for subverting our will to His own. He is the Creator. He alone is God. His elect see this, embrace this, and give Him all praise and glory in this, knowing that He is indeed just and holy. Though His sovereign choices may offend our earthly notions of "fairness"... He alone has the sovereign power and authority to do as He wishes with His creation for whatever purposes He has determined.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's assume that a world leader determined to bring the world into a nuclear holocaust tomorrow in effort to destroy all life on earth within two hours. Would God allow that man's will to stand and thwart His entire redemptive plan as it concludes in the Revelation??? Would not God dispatch Holy Angels to war against the dark forces at work behind the man's decision? And would not God Himself bring the man to naught? Or... is man's free will so free that he might in fact sideline everything decreed in the book of Revelation? If man's will is so free, and God's sovereignty so surrendered (to make God a "gentleman"), how do we know that we've not already thwarted the divine plan and are living in a divergent man made reality this very hour? Is God "struggling" to fulfill what He has decreed for the conclusion of this dispensation???

Clearly the answer is obvious. God's will is sovereign and what He has declared to be will be. Regardless of the petty accusations and names we (His creations) might throw at Him for subverting our will to His own. He is the Creator. He alone is God. His elect see this, embrace this, and give Him all praise and glory in this, knowing that He is indeed just and holy. Though His sovereign choices may offend our earthly notions of "fairness"... He alone has the sovereign power and authority to do as He wishes with His creation for whatever purposes He has determined.

What you are taking about is divine intervention not predestination. The man would have the ability to try do anything he wanted but God can intervene and make that not possible. The difference here is that in predestination man has no choice but to do what God wills.

[BrotherEastman]

I couldn't fathom an unfair God.

[Luke]

Aquila wouldn't irresistible grace have to be true or aleast be true by default if predestination is true?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

What you are taking about is divine intervention not predestination.

Predestined, divine intervention. Without election, none would be saved.

The man would have the ability to try do anything he wanted but God can intervene and make that not possible. The difference here is that in predestination man has no choice but to do what God wills.

There is more than one view of Predestination. For example, the doctrine of irresistible grace often accompanies predestination. Some say it works silently and mechanically. Others say that it can be "resisted"... However, resistance never prevails. Therefore, in this light it is irresistible (as with Saul of Tarsus).