Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Sabby

One of the moderators (can't remember which one) got their tongue tangled while mentioning the HISTORY of CBC, and said something very similar to Historicist (not a real timely word to use!) Magruder took the mike after that gentleman and said something to the effect "we'll not have any of that around here"....

.

I don't understand this part at all.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Reader

My apologies. Had Fudge omitted that piece of Fisher's life, Fudge's book certainly would have been dismissed by anyone who knew.

Fisher was effectively destroyed by the opposition, the oppression may have so weakened him that his human frailty overcame him. According to Fudge, there was no evidence of his homosexually until after the demise of CBC. Of course, he had also been dealing with the same forces against his PCI view when he was president of JCM, just prior to moving back to Portland.

Some may blame the "weakness on the message" as what destroyed him? He seemed to have been effective in St Louis and early on in Jackson, he obviously was a strong leader, but eventually couldn't handle the constant battle.

Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life".

This is a sad saga, but thank God, Jesus is the one that finally judges all men.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Sabby

You had better believe it. My senior year 79-80, the CBC Chorale was having a service in Twin Falls, Idaho at Carroll Magruder's church. Because it was a school function the DS's were there. Charley Yadon from Washington, Norman Rutzen from Idaho, Winifred Toole from Oregon, and Ralph Reynolds the school president (he came out of retirement to replace John Klemin).
Rutzen (as the host DS) invited the two other DSs onto the platform, had them all hold hands. He got them moving their hands back and forth and asked everyone in the congregation to "sing" with them, "When we allllll pull together, together, together, when we alllll pull together, how happy we'll be!"
One of the moderators (can't remember which one) got their tongue tangled while mentioning the HISTORY of CBC, and said something very similar to Historicist (not a real timely word to use!) Magruder took the mike after that gentleman and said something to the effect "we'll not have any of that around here"....

The choir director for that event and that school year was Jerry Dillon. He had been on the staff for many years. He was rumored to be non-dispensationalist. Years later Alvin Cobb told me Dillon's eschatology was the same as Br Nigh's.
Jerry got himself into trouble with the Portland area pastors in a class of his I enrolled in called Bible Lands and Customs. This was around the time a Br Johnson (I believe) from California preached the Oregon District Youth Camp meeting, probably '78 or '79. In the class, Jerry taught the hebrew meaning of worship of which he explained to be like a dog licking its master's hand. He criticized those that claimed worship was like running the aisles, rolling on the floor, or dancing feverishly with eyes closed, saying that it might be praise but was not worship. This lit a fuse with a couple of our male students, one in particular. A couple of the students took strong difference with him and would later talk to their pastors (Barlow, Dugas, etc) about the heretic teaching at the bible college.
Back to Br Johnson. He preached at this youth camp, and in one of his sermons he said something to the effect that "God doesn't care if all you have is a bucket of rocks to worship Him with!" The one particular student I mentioned about took it upon himself to spray paint an empty Folger's can, fill it with rocks (not pebbles) and took it upon himself to shake it in our chapel services much like someone would shake a tambourine. It was very obnoxious and it was impossible to truly worship (and very hard to sincerely praise) with cement factory going on.
To this day I can't understand why no one in the school administration did not have the courage to tell him that rocks are not allowed. I have to believe they were fearful of the repercussions.

It is oh so sad to see and hear Christians fighting and slamming one another.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Fisher was effectively destroyed by the opposition, the oppression may have so weakened him that his human frailty overcame him. According to Fudge, there was no evidence of his homosexually until after the demise of CBC. Of course, he had also been dealing with the same forces against his PCI view when he was president of JCM, just prior to moving back to Portland.

Some may blame the "weakness on the message" as what destroyed him? He seemed to have been effective in St Louis and early on in Jackson, he obviously was a strong leader, but eventually couldn't handle the constant battle.

Ultimately Fisher was responsible for his actions and the terrible path that he took, and as Fudge says "he paid with this life".

This is a sad saga, but thank God, Jesus is the one that finally judges all men.

Anyone who would ascribe DWF's personal moral failure to his doctrinal views is either an idiot or intellectually dishonest. Human failure happens in every ideological and theological camp. From ultra cons to ultra liberals, one steppers and three steppers.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by CC1

I don't understand this part at all.

Fulfilled prophecy was NOT welcome!!!

[Sabby]

Jerry got himself into trouble with Phil Dugas my freshman year. He was the advisor for the senior class. The school had an outing and each class had a skit to do. The senior class did a parody of the bus ministry and the some of the methods that had been used to get kids on the S.S. bus. At the time, PD had four buses and the largest (UPC) bus ministry in PDX. During the senior's skit one of the choruses they sang went something like, "Numbers, numbers, numbers is the name of the game. Just keep them coming through the doors no matter why they came". Bubble gum Sunday took a hit! It didn't matter why they got on the bus, just as long as they GOT on the bus. Coincidentally, there were times that kids were offered things like bubble gum, etc, to attend PD's Sunday school. I think Phil had good motives. He wanted as many kids to learn about Jesus as possible. I think Jerry Dillon had good motives. He was striking out at the obsession with numbers that comes at the expense of true evangelism and discipleship.
Needless to say, PD was furious and personally told me that he considered it an attack on him and his church.
My best friend was a member of the senior class and attending Evangel (Phil Dugas') church. He began to teach home bible studies in his home. He had about 4 months to go to graduate. One of the requirements students of the school had with the Portland area pastors was that they had to select a single church in which they would attend during the school year (usually had a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year to decide which one) and they were forbidden to church hop. It created some problems for those who disagreed with the style or methods or personality of church...they would just have to tough it out for the rest of the year, and they were considered "church members" where they attended. It was actually just free S.S. staffing.
Back to my friend's situation. He was called in to Phil's office and told that he was to cease and desist teaching any more home bible studies. If he continued, Phil threatened to kick him out of the church and he would be unable to graduate as a result. My friend told me that if he wanted to graduate (which he did want to do) he had no choice but to discontinue teaching home bible studies. Phil knew that my friend was a senior and that Jerry Dillon was his advisor. I'm sure that what transpired was in some way connected to Phil's antipathy towards Jerry and secondarily the school

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by CC1

Anyone who would ascribe DWF's personal moral failure to his doctrinal views is either an idiot or intellectually dishonest. Human failure happens in every ideological and theological camp. From ultra cons to ultra liberals, one steppers and three steppers.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Jerry got himself into trouble with Phil Dugas my freshman year. He was the advisor for the senior class. The school had an outing and each class had a skit to do. The senior class did a parody of the bus ministry and the some of the methods that had been used to get kids on the S.S. bus. At the time, PD had four buses and the largest (UPC) bus ministry in PDX. During the senior's skit one of the choruses they sang went something like, "Numbers, numbers, numbers is the name of the game. Just keep them coming through the doors no matter why they came". Bubble gum Sunday took a hit! It didn't matter why they got on the bus, just as long as they GOT on the bus. Coincidentally, there were times that kids were offered things like bubble gum, etc, to attend PD's Sunday school. I think Phil had good motives. He wanted as many kids to learn about Jesus as possible. I think Jerry Dillon had good motives. He was striking out at the obsession with numbers that comes at the expense of true evangelism and discipleship.
Needless to say, PD was furious and personally told me that he considered it an attack on him and his church.
My best friend was a member of the senior class and attending Evangel (Phil Dugas') church. He began to teach home bible studies in his home. He had about 4 months to go to graduate. One of the requirements students of the school had with the Portland area pastors was that they had to select a single church in which they would attend during the school year (usually had a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year to decide which one) and they were forbidden to church hop. It created some problems for those who disagreed with the style or methods or personality of church...they would just have to tough it out for the rest of the year, and they were considered "church members" where they attended. It was actually just free S.S. staffing.
Back to my friend's situation. He was called in to Phil's office and told that he was to cease and desist teaching any more home bible studies. If he continued, Phil threatened to kick him out of the church and he would be unable to graduate as a result. My friend told me that if he wanted to graduate (which he did want to do) he had no choice but to discontinue teaching home bible studies. Phil knew that my friend was a senior and that Jerry Dillon was his advisor. I'm sure that what transpired was in some way connected to Phil's antipathy towards Jerry and secondarily the school

If your friend was teaching home bible studies in lieu of attending one of the area churches as the rules called for then he was clearly violating the rules. If he was conducting home bible studies in addition to attending a local church then it would all come down to what his motives were and what he was teaching. If his motive was to undermine a local pastor or to teach that pastors saints things contrary to the pastors teachings then he was dead wrong. Needed to wait until he graduated then start his own church!

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by crakjak

It is oh so sad to see and hear Christians fighting and slamming one another.

CJ,
I'm not being a Debbie Downer, just reciting history. I'm sure it still happens elsewhere.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by CC1

If your friend was teaching home bible studies in lieu of attending one of the area churches as the rules called for then he was clearly violating the rules. If he was conducting home bible studies in addition to attending a local church then it would all come down to what his motives were and what he was teaching. If his motive was to undermine a local pastor or to teach that pastors saints things contrary to the pastors teachings then he was dead wrong. Needed to wait until he graduated then start his own church!

My friend was teaching home bible studies on off-church nights, teaching his neighbors (who were not attending anywhere). They never missed church - school policy forbad it.
He denied teaching eschatalogy when I asked him. He said that that there are more important things to teach, like Jesus. My friend was not raised in the UPC. He was Alvin Cobb's convert in Europe while in the military. He had won several soldiers to The Lord when I knew him in Germany. I don't think he had an agenda, but then again, I don't know his mind or motives at the time.