All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

With the logic that some are using, just about everyone baptized prior to 1913 would be in hell.

This is simply preposterous!

With this logic, the only people in heaven would be Apostolics, and even then, not even half because everyone knows that not everyone who attends church on Sunday mornings is really saved.

Preposterous!

At least the jw's have a reconciliation prize for those who are not part of the elite 144,000-- the new earth.

What reconciliation prize do some on this thread offer?

I believe if God intended anything to be invoked over a baptismal candidate, it certainly would include the name of Jesus Christ. I believe history proves this. I believe we, with love and patience should point that out to the church world. Since 1992 I have never baptized anyone any other way and never will. I'm glad I was rebaptized the way the Apostles baptized.

Flip side of the coin, we've made it into something God never intended, a form a sacerdotalism.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Actually, the Greek name for Jesus was originally Iesous(sounds like....eesus)....Just say it and you will notice how close it is to the English translation...Jesus. Our Lord knows what we are saying.

There is a former UPC preacher in Mexico who has left the organization over a "revelation" he purportedly received that if you were not baptized in the name of Yeshua, then you are not really baptized and still in your sins. He has made a significant impact and hundreds of Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled Apostolics have been rebaptized after having been convinced they weren't really saved.

We've done it to AoG folk and others for decades. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

You know what's funny, I'm from the North, and so when my Atheist husband had our shotgun wedding at the courthouse, I was thinking that courthouse = secular ceremony. I was not really thinking about the fact that I live in a small county in the Bible belt! So it was all Jesus, this ,and Jesus that. At the time, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, I kept thinking Josh was going to bolt or Object!

But as she did pronounce us husband and wife (by the power invested in her by the state of Georgia and the Lord Jesus Christ), so I confess, I have teased my husband about it a time or two...

Well at least we know your marriage is valid.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Sean

Actually, the Greek name for Jesus was originally Iesous(sounds like....eesus)....Just say it and you will notice how close it is to the English translation...Jesus. Our Lord knows what we are saying.

Yes, but my point was that those sitting at Jesus's feet probably weren't calling him the Greek form of his name either....

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

What we are saying, our intents, our thoughts...

Our GOD is all-knowing and MERCIFUL-- the source of Grace and HE IS TRUTH!

Originally Posted by Originalist

There is a former UPC preacher in Mexico who has left the organization over a "revelation" he purportedly received that if you were not baptized in the name of Yeshua, then you are not really baptized and still in your sins. He has made a significant impact and hundreds of Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled Apostolics have been rebaptized after having been convinced they weren't really saved.

We've done it to AoG folk and others for decades. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

Exactly this...when you demand absolute specificity, there will always be room for improvement.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It's not humiliating when there isn't any pride.

Please, do not hold back.

For real.

Bro. my head is racing with your sex analogy and how STUPID that question(statement)was.....They may kick me off of AFF for letting it all hang out here.


If you are relating it to "fleshly" works(sex) you forgot to ask if we should do these things in Jesus' name also.....

Take a shower, sit on toilet, eat ice cream, mow lawn, go fishing, go hunting, discipline kids, pay bills, go to work, get mail, go grocery shopping, have septic tank pumped, feed dog, kick cat...etc.


See how moronic that post was? You suggested doing works of the flesh(sex) in Jesus name in comparison to Spiritual Works commanded of God for us to be or become His disciples....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Yes, but my point was that those sitting at Jesus's feet probably weren't calling him the Greek form of his name either....





Exactly this...when you demand absolute specificity, there will always be room for improvement.

To the contrary, the Language of the day was GREEK. Just like the manuscripts we have to use to put together our Bibles.....those that walked with the Lord, 2000 years ago called Him "Iesous"... (eesus). Modern English added the "J"sound. All Non Greek languages can only "mimic" the name as close as possible. If you have a speech impediment or stutter uncontrollably, just say Jesus the best you can...Jesus knows his name when you call.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Sean

To the contrary, the Language of the day was GREEK. Just like the manuscripts we have to use to put together our Bibles.....those that walked with the Lord, 2000 years ago called Him "Iesous"... (eesus). Modern English added the "J"sound. All Non Greek languages can only "mimic" the name as close as possible. If you have a speech impediment or stutter uncontrollably, just say Jesus the best you can...Jesus knows his name when you call.

I was pretty sure that they wrote in Greek, but that Aramaic was the common spoken language?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus

It is generally agreed that Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic, the common language of Judea in the first century AD, most likely a Galilean dialect distinguishable from that of Jerusalem. The towns of Nazareth and Capernaum in Galilee, where Jesus spent most of his time, were Aramaic-speaking communities.

According to Jewish historian Josephus, Greek wasn't spoken in first century Israel. Josephus also points out the extreme rarity of a Jew knowing Greek.[6]

Josephus wrote:

I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.

—Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Yes, but my point was that those sitting at Jesus's feet probably weren't calling him the Greek form of his name either....





Exactly this...when you demand absolute specificity, there will always be room for improvement.

Great point.

This is something that has puzzled me about our movement. Believe me when I tell you that I took my time making the transition from the AoG to the UPCI. I went over everything with a fine toothed comb. I studied scripture, writings and history. After this thoughtful and prayerful study I came to the following conclusions.....

1) The standard. modern version of the Trinity doctrine is not quite tritheism but does start one down that road in his thinking. At best it is a very inadequate way to describe the God of the Bible.

2) The oneness doctrine, while also having it's "problems" best describes the God of the Bible amongst all the teachings out there.

3) That Evangelicals, while admirably being zealous to defend the doctrine of justification by faith alone, made a mistake in relegating water baptism to a "post salvation , outward expression of an inward act".

4) That the Mathew 228:19 wording is actually describing baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as practiced by the Apostles.

5) That the baptism in the Holy Ghost is NOT a "work of grace subsequent to the new birth" but is indeed the new birth of the Spirit.


One conclusion I did NOT come to was that nobody was saved from the rise of Catholicism until 1913. What God impressed upon me was that he is patiently trying to reintroduce these truths to a church that is filled with flawed, weak human beings who tend to miss what he is saying one regular basis, individually and corporately. The Lord also impressed upon me that the rancor and animosity that exists between Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostals was never his will and grieves his heart.

Since 1992 I have continued to walk in and teach the 5 points that God showed me as listed above. But I have never burned my bridges to those good men in the Trinitarian Pentecostal ranks who led me to Christ and discipled me from 1980 to 1992. If I am a blessing at all to the UPCI, much of the credit goes to them.

Having studied the history of the Apostolic movement, it is clear that our leaders back then did not feel the Holy Ghost filled Trinitarian associates they were separating from were lost, hell bound sinners as is taught by many in our ranks now.

As dichotomy Girl pointed out, demanding absolute specificity on every minute detail before you will call someone a brother (I'm referring to people who have the Holy Ghost) only leads to the need for more and more specificity to the point we can't even get along with our own Jesus name brethren, much less Trinitarians who might be open to more truth if it weren't laden with so much vinegar.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

I was pretty sure that they wrote in Greek, but that Aramaic was the common spoken language?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus

No, the gospels and the epistles were all written in Greek. It was the language of the day and forced upon the people for hundreds of years(since Alexander the Great). It is like the African Americans today, do you know of one African American that had ancestors in slavery,being brought here, and after 200 years,the kids still speak any of the African dialects? Even one sentence?

[Sean]

FYI....The "Hebrew roots" movement is trying to push that Aramaic concept, but it is false.....BTW Aramaic is not at all like ancient Hebrew.