All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What is more important ,and actually more Biblical, is the one being baptized calling on his name.

EVERY person that I ever baptized I instructed them that I would be calling (invoking) the name of Jesus over them and that they should be doing the same. It's not just a man saying a name, but two people calling on the name of Jesus to remits the baptized one's sins.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Having studied the history of the Apostolic movement, it is clear that our leaders back then did not feel the Holy Ghost filled Trinitarian associates they were separating from were lost, hell bound sinners as is taught by many in our ranks now.

As dichotomy Girl pointed out, demanding absolute specificity on every minute detail before you will call someone a brother (I'm referring to people who have the Holy Ghost) only leads to the need for more and more specificity to the point we can't even get along with our own Jesus name brethren, much less Trinitarians who might be open to more truth if it weren't laden with so much vinegar.

Thank you for showing love even in disagreement with fellow Christians. I think we'd all be amazed if we realized how much we disagree'd on things from church to church and even pew to pew. Ironically, I grew up Oneness 3 stepper, but am currently attending a spirit-filled AofG church where I'm growing and learning things never taught in my previous church.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Sean

No, the gospels and the epistles were all written in Greek. It was the language of the day and forced upon the people for hundreds of years(since Alexander the Great). It is like the African Americans today, do you know of one African American that had ancestors in slavery,being brought here, and after 200 years,the kids still speak any of the African dialects? Even one sentence?

Originally Posted by Sean

FYI....The "Hebrew roots" movement is trying to push that Aramaic concept, but it is false.....BTW Aramaic is not at all like ancient Hebrew.

Um, did you see the quote from Josephus? He was a major 1st century Jewish Historian and he writes flatly that Greek was not commonly spoken by Jews in the first century, that in fact it was a rarity.

And you offer no proof for your disagreement. But anyway, here are some biblical examples:

John 20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

Acts 21:37-40
Paul Speaks to the Crowd
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the barracks, he asked the commander, “May I say something to you?”

“Do you speak Greek?” he replied. 38 “Aren’t you the Egyptian who started a revolt and led four thousand terrorists out into the wilderness some time ago?”

39 Paul answered, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people.”

40 After receiving the commander’s permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic

22 1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.”

2 When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet.

(Notice the Commander seems surprised that Paul spoke Greek, and that Paul addressed the crowd in Aramaic. This occurred in Jerusalem)

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Thank you for showing love even in disagreement with fellow Christians. I think we'd all be amazed if we realized how much we disagree'd on things from church to church and even pew to pew. Ironically, I grew up Oneness 3 stepper, but am currently attending a spirit-filled AofG church where I'm growing and learning things never taught in my previous church.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Um, did you see the quote from Josephus? He was a major 1st century Jewish Historian and he writes flatly that Greek was not commonly spoken by Jews in the first century, that in fact it was a rarity.

And you offer no proof for your disagreement. But anyway, here are some biblical examples:

John 20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). Aramaic was her 2nd language...very common.

Acts 21:37-40
Paul Speaks to the Crowd
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the barracks, he asked the commander, “May I say something to you?”

“Do you speak Greek?” he replied. 38 “Aren’t you the Egyptian who started a revolt and led four thousand terrorists out into the wilderness some time ago?”

39 Paul answered, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people.”

40 After receiving the commander’s permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in Aramaic

22 1 “Brothers and fathers, listen now to my defense.”

2 When they heard him speak to them in Aramaic, they became very quiet.

(Notice the Commander seems surprised that Paul spoke Greek, and that Paul addressed the crowd in Aramaic. This occurred in Jerusalem)

Pauls 1st language was Greek, he spoke Hebrew AND Aramaic also...






If you think that Israel couldnt speak Greek after living under Greek/Roman domination for hundreds of years, you need to just GOOGLE the subject and be open minded(you dont have to believe me, just google it). One Jewish historian does not speak for the scattered Jews from ALL OVER EUROPE. They would have committed financial and national suicide by not assimilating into the dominant culture and language.(just look around the U.S. and you will kinda see what I am talking about, with other non-English speaking folks)

[Sean]

This is a good post to give us some clarity here....This author's opinion is that Jesus spoke Greek and Aramaic, possible Hebrew also......enjoy...also that the popular modern language of Jews was Greek


Did Jesus Speak Greek?
posted by Mark D. Roberts
So far in this series, I’ve presented the case that Jesus spoke Aramaic as his first language and in a substantial portion of his teaching, especially when he was speaking with average people in Galilee, where Aramaic was the common language of the day. I have also suggested that it’s likely that Jesus spoke Hebrew, which he learned as a Jewish boy in a faithful family. His facility with Hebrew enabled him to read the biblical text in the synagogue and to engage in respectable debate with other Jewish teachers of the day (the Pharisees, the scribes, etc.).
But could Jesus have known Greek as well? Might he have used Greek at times in his teaching, or at least in some of his conversations?
Because the manuscripts of the Gospels are in Greek, we do not have the advantage such as we have in the case of Aramaic, where Aramaic words and phrases are actually transliterated and included in the Greek text of the Gospels. Quotations of a Greek-speaking Jesus would not stand out, and would simply flow with the Greek text.
Every now and then, I have run into commentators who argue that some of the sayings of Jesus imply that he knew Greek. If, for example, there is a play on words that works in Greek but not in Aramaic or Hebrew, this points to a Greek original. At this moment I can’t remember any specific examples. Perhaps a commenter can fill us in. But, to this point, I have not been convinced that any of the sayings must have had a Greek origin. I have been more convinced by those who propose a Semitic (Aramaic or Hebrew) original for the sayings of Jesus.
So, the evidence for Jesus’ speaking Greek will be circumstantial only. But this evidence is not insignificant.
The fact that the Gospels are written in Greek bears shows that many if not most of the earliest Christians, including some who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry, knew Greek and used it often, perhaps as their first language. Many Jewish writings from the era of Jesus were written in Greek, including works such as 2 Maccabees and 1 Esdras. Other Hebrew writings were being translated into Greek in Jerusalem (the book of Esther, for example, in 114 B.C.). Speaking of Jerusalem, scholars have found some ninety Greek inscriptions on ossuaries (boxes for bones) that date to around the time of Jesus and were found in or around Jerusalem.
Ever since Alexander the Great conquered Palestine in 332 B.C., Greek had been the language of government and, increasingly, commerce and scholarship. Though Aramaic continued to be spoken by many, Greek grew in its popularity and influence. In the time of Jesus, well-educated Jews, mainly those of the upper classes, would have known and used Greek. So would those who were involved in trade or government. But many other Jews would have had at least a rudimentary knowledge of Greek which they used in their business and travels to the larger cities.
manuscript-hab-nahal-hever-5.jpgThe presence and pervasiveness of Greek in Palestine is demonstrated by a discovery in the Nahal Hever region of the Judean Desert near the Dead Sea. In a cave, a scroll was found that contains substantial portions of the minor prophets in Greek. The so-called Nahal Hever Minor Prophets Scroll, dated around the time of Jesus, shows the influence and popularity of Greek, even among highly religious Jews. (Photo: A portion of the scroll found at Nahal Hever. This shows a passage from Habakkuk 2-3. Notice that the letters are all capitals and there are no spaces between words. That was commonplace in the first century.)
Though the New Testament Gospels do not tell us whether Jesus spoke Greek or not, they do describe situations in which it’s likely that Greek was used. In Matthew 8:5-13, for example, Jesus entered into dialogue with a Roman centurion. The centurion almost certainly spoke in Greek. And, as Matthew tells the story, he and Jesus spoke directly, without a translator. Of course it’s always possible that a translator was used and simply not mentioned by Matthew. Still, the sense of the story suggests more immediate communication, which would have been in Greek.
The same could be said about Jesus’ conversation with Pontius Pilate prior to his crucifixion (Matthew 27:11-14; John 18:33-38). Once again, there is the possibility of an unmentioned translator. But the telling of the story points to a Greek-speaking Jesus. (Pilate would have used Greek, not Latin, as imagined by Mel Gibson in The Passion of the Christ. And it’s unlikely that he would have known or used Aramaic. Pilate was not the sort of man who would stoop to use the language of common Jews.)
If Jesus knew enough Greek to converse with a Roman centurion and a Roman governor, where did he learn it? Some have suggested that he might have learned it during his early years in Egypt. A more likely explanation points to his location in Galilee. Though Aramaic was the first language of Nazareth, Jesus’ hometown was a short walk from Sepphoris, which was a major city and one in which Greek was spoken. Jesus quite probably had clients in Sepphoris who utilized his carpentry services, and he would have spoken with them in Greek.
But given the multi-lingual context in which Jesus lived, it’s not surprising that he would have been reasonably fluent in Greek and Hebrew, in addition to Aramaic. People in the United States often have a hard time understanding this. But if you’ve known people who have grown up in Europe, for example, they often can get by in several languages, including English, German, Spanish, and French, even if their first language is Italian.
Can we know for sure that Jesus spoke Greek? No. Is it reasonable to assume that he could speak Greek and did upon occasion? Yes, I believe so. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of the variations in the Gospels among the sayings of Jesus reflect that fact that he said more or less the same things in Aramaic, Hebrew, and/or Greek.
In my next and final post in this series, I’ll suggest some reasons why I think the language of Jesus matters . . . or, better, why the languages of Jesus matter.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

EVERY person that I ever baptized I instructed them that I would be calling (invoking) the name of Jesus over them and that they should be doing the same. It's not just a man saying a name, but two people calling on the name of Jesus to remits the baptized one's sins.

Not one shred of scripture to back up your statement.

Words do not remit sin. Only Jesus can do that.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Not one shred of scripture to back up your statement.

Words do not remit sin. Only Jesus can do that.

See that's thing about viewing scripture from a trinitaian view, you embarrass yourself.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

[Originalist]

You are a liar. You keep referring to me as Trinitarian. You know I am not. That makes you a liar and on your way to hell unless you repent.

The issue being discussed in our current dialog is not the godhead, thus making your Trinitarian accusation that much more illogical. What you and I are debating is whether or not you and I have the power of remission of sins on our tongues. That question is not a trinity or oneness question.

The question at hand is whether or not you and I forgive sins or does Jesus Christ forgive sins?

By your theory a sinner could weep and repent, run into a baptismal pool screaming "Jesus I repent! I have sinned against you and you alone!! I cry out for your mercy! I believe you died for me and rose again and that you are Lord! I give all to you now", and while he is screaming these words the pastor immerses him under the water without uttering one word. The convert comes up out of the water being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. He begins to bear fruit of righteousness. He starts winning souls left and right. He is a humble man and greatly strengthens and encourages his brethren. He later becomes a missionary shaking the nations of the world. Finally he is captured by hostile foes of the gospel and is burned alive for the testimony of Christ.

As he stands before the throne, God says, "I am sorry, but in spite of how much you loved me and I loved you, and how you selflessly gave your all for me and made me the center of everything, I must consign you to hell for eternity because when you got baptized the preacher forgot to say 'in Jesus' name'"

You essentially believe a similar scene is played out in Heaven every day many times over in the courtroom of heaven. You and many others are blasphemers and will be rejected at the judgment seat of Christ for teaching such as blasphemous doctrine.

The word "remission" in Acts 2:38 is literally translated "forgiveness" in the Greek. We are baptized "in order that" are sins can be FORGIVEN. But some of you boldly proclaim on here the act of baptism mixed with your invocations somehow "washes away sins". You are missing it! When a sinner repents and is buried with Christ, the baptism does not forgive him or take away his sins, neither do your words! Who then forgives them? JESUS DOES! This is why they are baptized, so JESUS can forgive them! And why does Jesus forgive them? Because the baptism itself was perfect? NO!! He forgives them because of their faith and repentance, because they are making him Lord!!

BTW your take on John 15:3 should embarrass YOU! HIS word is the cleansing word, not mine or yours. Furthermore you are not interpreting that verse in light of verses 1 and 2 where Jesus is speaking of purging already existing branches. You do not know how to interpret scripture.

[Sean]

Brother, the name of Jesus we use is connected to faith to make it powerful....Acts 3:16
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you allIf the Apostle never physically spoke the name "Jesus" by faith the miracle wouldnt have happened. Water baptism is identical...it requires a spoken name and faith....Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth(faith) and is baptized(in the NAME) shall be saved; but he that believeth not(no faith) shall be damned.


It is all in how it is used....we use it(Jesus name) by faith to do miracles and remit sins, but the unbelievers use it as a cuss word.

We can see the contrast and effects from the way it is used.