Reformed Theology

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

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It’s important to remember that when ancient Jews spoke about God choosing people, they thought primarily of their nation, not individuals. God chose Israel as a nation to be his “chosen people.” Yet, individuals had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to be part of this corporate election, as Paul elsewhere explicitly teaches (Rom 11). So when Paul says that “God choose us” in Christ, he doesn’t mean “God choose us individuals to be in Christ, as opposed to other individuals he didn’t choose.” What he means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
What God decided for us ahead of time was not whether we’d be in Christ or not. What he decided ahead of time was what would happen to all who chose to be in Christ. God determined that whoever chooses to be in Christ would be adopted as children and would be “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4-5). Now that we are in Christ, what was predestined for this group before the foundation of the world applies to us.
Imagine it like this. Suppose I’m teaching a college class in which I show a certain boring documentary. After the documentary, a student asks me; “Dr. Boyd, when did you decide we’d have to watch this boring documentary?” I reply, “I decided this class would watch this boring documentary six months ago when I put together the syllabus.” The student could then turn and announce to all who were present, “Professor Boyd decided six months ago that we’d have to sit through this boring documentary.”
But notice this: I didn’t decide six months earlier that any particular student would watch – or not watch – the documentary. What I predestined was that whoever chooses to be in my class would watch this documentary. My decision was about the class, not the future individuals who would end up comprising this class. It was up to each student to decide whether what was predestined for the class was also predestined for them. Now that all these particular students had chosen to belong to my class, they could all say; “Dr. Boyd decided six months ago that we would watch this documentary.”


- See more at: http://reknew.org/2014/07/predestina....s4ytrpJ1.dpuf

I completely agree with the above statement.

What he (Paul) means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
The Church is predestined to be saved, sanctified, filled with good works, to be pure and holy without blame before Him "in love".

There are far too many holes to fill if buying into the TULIP.
Totally depraved? Who defines depravement and it's manifestation? Calvin? Original Sin? hmmm. I haven't come to terms with the moral equivalent of Mother Teresa and Osama Bin Laden or John Dillinger.
I agree the CHURCH is Unconditionally "elected" or chosen.
Limited atonement? Not if Christ gave his life for the WORLD.
Irrestible grace? Some have resisted to their folly. The entymology of the word "irrestible" also needs a deeper look through non-Calvinic lenses.
Perserverance = enduring 'til the end makes a good argument, however the stories of the prodigal and Jesus' comments about those that do the will of God illustrate the longsuffering of God towards those that return to Him, who through bad circumstances or bad choices lose confidence or hope for a season. That they returned "home" is key. They ALREADY had a relationship, but they changed their thinking (repented) about walking away from God and the Church. They didn't need a second "new birth" (maybe another water baptism) because they had already been "born again".
Grace must be blended into the mix.
Let's look at TULIP again with a reflexive second-look through the cross.

[Aquila]

Analogy for corporate election and predestination:

The relationship of corporate election and predestination could be compared to a ship (i.e., the church, the body of Christ) on its way to its future and final destination (i.e., conformity to the image of Christ). The ship is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the chosen Captain and Pilot of this chosen ship. God desires that everyone would come aboard this ship and has graciously made provisions for them to do so through its Captain. Only those who place their trust in the Captain of the ship are welcomed to come on board. As long as they remain on the ship, through a living faith in the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and its Captain through unbelief, they cease to be among the elect. Election is experienced only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's future direction and final destination that God has prepared for those remaining on it. God, out of his immense love, invites everyone to come aboard the ship through faith in the ship's Captain, Jesus Christ.

What I like about this is that it theologically preserves both God's sovereign will and human free will as it relates to divine election. Christ is elect (chosen) and predestined for glory. We partake in that election and predestination unto salvation when we make the choice to be found in Him.

[Aquila]

Verses from a Corporate Election point of view...

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us (the church) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (the church) should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we (Paul and members of the church) are bound to give thanks alway to God for you (the church), brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you (the church) to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow (the church), he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us (the church), and called us (the church) with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us (the church) in Christ Jesus before the world began,

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me (the church) shall come to me; and him that cometh to me (the church) I will in no wise cast out.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect (the church) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you (the church), and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (the church) should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Peter 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world (Jesus Christ), but was manifest in these last times for you,

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Guess you haven't read Kuyper, Bavinck and a whole host of others.

Hey! You're back!

As to the op, most Calvinists would call me Pelagian... lol

But I do love Brooks and Edwards. Disagree on all 5points of the TULIP of course, but I do enjoy the old Puritan, Covenanter, Sovereign Grace and other Reformed authors.

We also use the SMV and are unashamed theonomists. ;-)

Good to see Reformed Dave is back.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Calvinism?

OK why is this place called Apostolic Friends Forum?

This place sure has evolved (or devolved) since the days of Jim Yohe.

Will I guess the Calvinists would just say it was predestined to be this way.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Calvinism?

OK why is this place called Apostolic Friends Forum?

This place sure has evolved (or devolved) since the days of Jim Yohe.

Will I guess the Calvinists would just say it was predestined to be this way.

[Aquila]

There are views of unconditional election that are not based on Calvinism.

For those who desire to discuss divine election, there is a thread in the debate folder under Salvation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There are views of unconditional election that are not based on Calvinism.

For those who desire to discuss divine election, there is a thread in the debate folder under Salvation.

Usually, those who hold to the unconditional predestined salvation of the saint (either Calvinist or not) end up having more doctrinal issues other than their soteriology. Thank you for the reference of the debate. If I happen have a bout of insomnia I will peruse the thread I am sure it will whisk me into a comatose state.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Usually, those who hold to the unconditional predestined salvation of the saint (either Calvinist or not) end up having more doctrinal issues other than their soteriology. Thank you for the reference of the debate. If I happen have a bout of insomnia I will peruse the thread I am sure it will whisk me into a comatose state.

lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Calvinism?

OK why is this place called Apostolic Friends Forum?

This place sure has evolved (or devolved) since the days of Jim Yohe.

Will I guess the Calvinists would just say it was predestined to be this way.

My problem with Calvinism is how it places Regeneration prior to Conversion. I believe that Regeneration can only come after Justification, which is attained through Conversion. Therefore, Conversion shouldn't be said to follow Regeneration, but rather Conversion follows a Prevenient Grace that draws the soul.