If you have to wear make-up to be accepted....

[ILG]

Originally Posted by SiblingRevelry

I'm curious to hear the answer to this one. Because my hair is this short. As for the jewelry and makeup, I don't wear them.

The real life answer for me is that I know I will not be asked to take any position in the fellowship I attend and it is due not only to the shortness of the hair but the fact that I keep it short for health reasons, but they're happy to get my offerings.

I don't have a problem with that woman's picture. I think her hair is too short but she does look feminine regardless of her haircut.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by SiblingRevelry

The problem with this statement is that biologically, some people present as both genders in their external biology. Some people may have external biology that doesn't match up with their genetics. And some people were operated on as babies because their external biology was decided by a doctor because the child didn't obviously present as male or female. This is not a rare occurrence; it's a daily thing.

Insisting on a "gender distinction" when biology itself doesn't do so is problematic to me.

Agreed. Rather, a principle should be taught that women should present as feminine and men should present as masculine, but there should be compassion for genetic issues. We are not the judge and jury of people's lives.

[Sasha]

I think there is a big difference in a woman wearing women's clothing that includes pants and a man wearing the same thing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

But I have tried the conservative route and I know rules do not work to keep sin out of the camp.

So everyone who keeps standards of outer separation are all banged up?

Originally Posted by ILG

Rather, it seems to keep it hidden.

Bob Coy wasn't preaching standards. Yet, his church has a plethora of issues, and now the pastor finally came out to let all us villagers finally know what we have always suspected about that church.

Maybe you could explain how standards keep sin hidden?

Are you trying to say it's a Matthew 23 situation?

Where the Pharisees had an appearance of holiness but were really filthy on the inside?

OK, then the opposite of that should be the liberals.

Because they don't preach standards therefore you can live your life looking like Captain Caveman in that way the sin is all out there hanging out for all to see?

Is it something like that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by SiblingRevelry

The problem with this statement is that biologically, some people present as both genders in their external biology. Some people may have external biology that doesn't match up with their genetics. And some people were operated on as babies because their external biology was decided by a doctor because the child didn't obviously present as male or female. This is not a rare occurrence; it's a daily thing.

Insisting on a "gender distinction" when biology itself doesn't do so is problematic to me.

[AR Pastor]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This man walks into your assembly, professing himself to be a believer:



Longer hair, but trimmed, some make-up but not much, tastefully done, no jewelry, wearing slightly feminine, but still possibly gender neutral apparel.

He wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does he have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

This man walks into your assembly, professing himself to be a believer:



Long hair, jewelry, including earrings, more make-up than the man above, but still not gaudy or over the top, definitely wearing women's clothing.

He wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does he have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

This woman walks into your assembly, professing herself to be a believer:



Short, cut hair, modest level of jewelry, no make-up at all, wearing semi-masculine, but mostly gender neutral clothing.

She wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does she have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

This woman walks into your assembly, professing herself to be a believer:



Longer hair, facial hair, no make-up, no jewelry, wearing men's clothing.

She wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does she have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

This man walks into your assembly, professing himself to be a believer:



Longer hair, jewelry, no make-up, facial hair, wearing men's clothing.

He wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does he have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

This woman walks into your assembly, professing herself to be a believer:



Shorter hair, tasteful jewelry, nicely applied make-up, wearing women's clothing.

She wants to join your church, perhaps get involved in ministry someday.

Does she have to change?

If yes, why?

If not, why not?

Scriptural answers only, no hypocrisy.

all these people need to pray through ad get right with God.

They would all be preached to in love and taught how to live for God.
Then if they get right and really live for God they could be used.

[ILG]

So everyone who keeps standards of outer separation are all banged up?

Hmm. I am not sure how to answer that. I don't have a problem with people keeping external standards unless they make them salvational especially if they are personal convictions.

Bob Coy wasn't preaching standards. Yet, his church has a plethora of issues, and now the pastor finally came out to let all us villagers finally know what we have always suspected about that church.

So are you saying that no preacher who preaches standards never has any of these issues?

Maybe you could explain how standards keep sin hidden?

If Joe Blow Pastor keeps certain standards to the letter of the law, agrees with his brethren when they preach such etc. but inside his church he skims off a few bucks and looks at porn behind closed doors, then someone reports him, some are likely to say "But he does XYZ standards! We know that he must be right with God! We trust him! He says all the right things!" Instead of investigating the issue, the surface is looked at and a pass is often given because of rules held and doctrines kept. On the other hand, Joe Troe Pastor, does not look at porn and does not skim off a few bucks, but he thinks that as long as you keep your eyes from wicked things, a TV is not wicked in itself and allows it. Joe Troe comes under scrutiny, judgment and gossip when Joe Troe is a better and more godly man than Joe Blow. This does not mean that more liberal people are better than more conservative ones (not at all) but it does mean that it is possible for sin to possibly hide better in conservativism by following rules and flaunting the following of them.

Where the Pharisees had an appearance of holiness but were really filthy on the inside?

This happens.

OK, then the opposite of that should be the liberals.

Because they don't preach standards therefore you can live your life looking like Captain Caveman in that way the sin is all out there hanging out for all to see?

Is it something like that?

No. Liberals can also have sin in the camp. What I am against is teaching to have an appearance of godliness but deny the power to truly deliver and truly live a right life. The more appearance one can hide behind, the more godly one can appear, whether the goods are on the inside or not. Thus, rules give more appearance to hide behind.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

Hmm. I am not sure how to answer that. I don't have a problem with people keeping external standards unless they make them salvational especially if they are personal convictions.

External standards in Christendom range across the board, but covering up is scriptural due to God not liking the fig leaf thongs of Adam and Eve. Therefore He gave them coats, not little coats, but full coverings. We live in a culture where walking around outdoors in your underwear isn't a big problem, but God has a problem with public nudity? Therefore covering yourself shouldn't be much of a hurdle. A woman looking like a woman, and a man looking like a man shouldn't be too much for God to ask for, but He wants the separation of the genders, not only in attire, but in leadership. Still all principles, yet ending up as rules that God made, and man chooses to adhere by.

Originally Posted by ILG

So are you saying that no preacher who preaches standards never has any of these issues?

Of course I'm not saying that, what I would like to say is this..industrialized church complex has gotten to a place where the pendulum swung right off its hinges. We are coming to a place where the mega church isn't cutting it, and the church on the corner is just in a holding pattern until Jesus returns. So, while conservative Pentecost is a forum's convenient whipping boy, we need to stand back from the painting and realize it looks like a used baby diaper.

You name the denomination and we can find the fly in the ointment which causes the perfume of Christ to stink. From Hindu Gurus to Brooklyn Rabbis you have corruption, that's why every religion should be judged by its best examples. Not by its worst, yet that is how we are wired, to only stare at the zit on the girl's nose, and not her face, or deeper than that, her character.

Originally Posted by ILG

If Joe Blow Pastor keeps certain standards to the letter of the law, agrees with his brethren when they preach such etc. but inside his church he skims off a few bucks and looks at porn behind closed doors, then someone reports him, some are likely to say "But he does XYZ standards! We know that he must be right with God! We trust him! He says all the right things!" Instead of investigating the issue, the surface is looked at and a pass is often given because of rules held and doctrines kept. On the other hand, Joe Troe Pastor, does not look at porn and does not skim off a few bucks, but he thinks that as long as you keep your eyes from wicked things, a TV is not wicked in itself and allows it. Joe Troe comes under scrutiny, judgment and gossip when Joe Troe is a better and more godly man than Joe Blow. This does not mean that more liberal people are better than more conservative ones (not at all) but it does mean that it is possible for sin to possibly hide better in conservativism by following rules and flaunting the following of them.

I don't see that as clear cut as you do, because I have friends from different religions who are ministers of those religions. They tell me about the same problems, which pretty much leads me to believe that we are dealing more with a maturity problem than anything else. We aren't Buddhists, Hindus, Rabbinical Jew or Roman Catholics we believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and allowing that Spirit to take full control to lead us into all truth. Therefore we should have more on the ball than other religions, but sadly we don't usually keep the main thing the main thing (thank you Brother T.F. Tenney)

Originally Posted by ILG

This happens.

Hence the reason Jesus pointed out their attire but described them with the term for costumed false face actors.

They appeared beautifully holy like white wash, but inwardly they were filled with rotten death. Wolves dressed to appear like the flock.

Yet, we don't beat up all the sheep because some wolves were caught dressing like them, nor do we start dressing like goats because wolves are partial to sheep's clothing.

Originally Posted by ILG

No. Liberals can also have sin in the camp. What I am against is teaching to have an appearance of godliness but deny the power to truly deliver and truly live a right life.

You are against it, and Jesus is against it.

Originally Posted by ILG

The more appearance one can hide behind, the more godly one can appear, whether the goods are on the inside or not. Thus, rules give more appearance to hide behind.

Still can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because there are counterfeit 100 dollar bills out there doesn't mean you are going to stop taking them when you cash your paycheck. Principles is what we shoot for, and rules are the byproducts we end up with, yet we are to be fruit inspectors. Because a bad tree (while it still looks like a tree) cannot produce good fruit, and a good tree (while it still looks like a tree) cannot produce bad fruit. Therefore we are admonished to KNOW the tree (which looks like all the other trees) by its fruit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by AR Pastor

all these people need to pray through ad get right with God.

They would all be preached to in love and taught how to live for God.
Then if they get right and really live for God they could be used.

PREACH IT!

[Jason B]

Its sad that OPs are so hung up on such trivial issues while the world suffers and goes to hell.