If you have to wear make-up to be accepted....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Its sad that OPs are so hung up on such trivial issues while the world suffers and goes to hell.

It is also sad that little children have the power to turn on computers and annoy adults having a conversation. Go to another thread if this one isn't up to your level of piety. Please do us all a favor and do what you are wanting others to do, and please lead by example. Go out there are save the world from suffering and stop them from going to hell. One minute you're One God, and the next you are Trinitarian (or whatever) then next minute you don't give tithes and the other minute you are walking around with an orange UNICEF box. So, please do me a favor and go slay some windmills for Christ.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Women dress nice and pretty, because it is what they do and who they are, and always have done.

Not so. Although certain forms of cosmetics have been around for a millennium, the modern use of cosmetics around the world is a relatively new trend in the history of the human race. By and large, almost no women throughout history have "always done" what you say they do.

And even if since Eve, all women everywhere have done what you say, you have to take into account the fallen nature of the human race and ask yourself why is it innately a part of so many women to beautify themselves above and beyond how God created them to look?

Think of all the ways a modern woman can change her natural appearance, and ask yourself why she is dissatisfied with the way God caused her to look with the DNA He gave her, that she has to amend herself so much.

Simon Peter told us that a woman married to an unsaved man shouldn't use anything outward in her appearance to win his soul; all should be inward.

Is this inspired Scripture or just a good suggestion?

So, if an unsaved man can be won to the Lord without the Word of God and without a women having to impress her husband through outward adornment, what makes a Christian woman think she has to do much of anything outwardly speaking to make herself more beautiful?

Who's it really for? God? Nope. The Church? Nope? The Lost? Nope.

So who's it really for? It's for her and her alone, for her own sense of satisfaction and comfort.

And while one's own sense of satisfaction and comfort is not always wrong or immoral, when one's own sense of satisfaction and comfort comes into possible conflict with the Word of God, which of the two ought to change?

If men apply war paint because they are going to war, or hunting, there is nothing wrong with their objective.

Survival and beauty and fashion are so far removed from each other I can't believe you're still pounding away at this.

If a woman applies makeup much as she would other adornments to compliment her attire, and desires to look attractive and presentable, because that is what women do... there is nothing wrong with that.

That is what some women do. Some women do not attempt to compliment themselves with their adornment through cosmetics. A woman of God doesn't need to make themselves appear more attractive than how God has already made them, and is fully capable of being presentable without cosmetics.

Are you saying a woman needs to wear cosmetics in order to feel attractive and presentable?

If so, what's wrong with that?

If however, that makeup is applied in order to attract attention, and cause men to desire her sexually, then this is a problem.

All make-up attracts attention. It is the chief design and purpose for its very existence! You just said that a woman will apply cosmetics to compliment her adornment and to make herself attractive (attracting what, if not attention???) and presentable, i.e. so that people will want to pay positive attention to her.

And we all know that the average lost man is WAAAYYY more attracted sexually to a woman in make-up than in a woman without it. So how do you or any other woman in the world for that matter, discern whether or not a man is going to be sexually attracted to what they see when a woman wears make-up?

If you had to err on the side of caution and not be a stumblingblock to the lost, knowing full well (i.e. not deceiving yourself) that unsaved and even saved men like a woman's face more when it has been beautified (hence they someone beautifies their face to begin with), then which would you choose and which would you advise any woman in the church to choose?

If you wore some make-up to appear attractive and presentable, and you inadvertently received negative, sexual attention from a man not your husband, what would you do?

You spoke of pride being the only reason that a woman would want to wear makeup...

That isn't what I said. I stated that I could see no other morally justifiable reason why a woman would wear make-up except for the long list of reasons I gave. Pride was merely one of the reasons.

well, let me ask you this... do you just go au' natural? No deodorant, hairspray, cologne? Don't even bother to shave, just let the beard grow? Do you wear a tie, belt, cuff links, or fancy boots? How about that suit? Is there pride involved in wearing or not wearing any of those things? Or do you wear those things to look nice, and presentable?

I shave because I have to for my work. I use deordorant for the comfort of those around me. I rarely use hairspray, only when I'm in need of a haircut, and when I go to work, which requires that I appear a certain way. I don't wear ties on any regular basis except for the occasions that call for them. I wear a belt to help keep my pants up where they belong. No cuff links, no fancy boots.

I don't wear suits apart from the special occasions in which a tie is required (weddings, funerals, business meetings, and etc.). I don't even wear a suit and tie to church. I go in jeans most often. I own two vehicles, both of which were given to us as acts of charity because we needed them and couldn't afford anything at the time (meaning I had no say in what I currently drive).

My church has a no suits and/or tie required policy because we live in an economic area where people can't reasonably afford such and we don't want to be a stumblingblock to them by making them think that if they attend a service without a suit on, that they aren't welcome (Actually practicing what we preach? What a concept!).

And so, no, I don't take pride in my appearance or in the things I own. I attempt always and only to be modest and please my Savior. Beyond modesty is pretention and ostentation. Beyond pleasing my Savior is legalism and works.

You know, I've been trying to point out the potential for hypocrisy in this post for awhile now; do you think I would do that if I myself were a hypocrite?

...especially when men put things on their bodies, just as women do, to be presentable.

When men do things like what you describe, it's just as bad and wrong.

You see, if we tried to take away every single thing that "could" be a source of pride, we might as well go live like hermits somewhere, because I guarantee that there is something you own, something you do, or something you love that "can" be a source of pride...

We ought to do our very best to eliminate from our lives anything we own that "can" be a source of pride to us, else what's the purpose of owing it, but to tempt ourselves?

We certainly do need to be on guard against pride, but we must be careful to not just broadbrush every single thing that "could" cause pride... and say that it does. Each one of us must answer to the Lord for ourselves, and what may cause pride in my life, may not even affect yours.

Fair enough, but we also need to be on guard against being a stumblingblock by using our liberty in the things that don't cause pride in us as a cloke of maliciousness, used to cause offense in others because we demand that our "convictions come first".

What happened to esteeming more highly the other person before self? To preferring others above self? To denying oneself? Aren't we supposed to reckon ourselves dead, but alive unto Christ?

Dead people don't care to flaunt themselves. They take no sinful pride in anything. They don't try to be more attractive and presentable than but for how God created them to look.

I'm telling you and anyone reading, the toxins of our modern, rugged individualist, this is 'Merica, Jack! culture have penetrated our way of thinking so completely, that certain Biblical topics like the ones I've been trying to bring up about this issue are impossible for us to grasp.

Yes, there are a lot of legalists and hypocrites, Pharisees and fakers in the church world. But there are also a lot of "you do you, I'll do me", can't anyone tell me what to do, think, believe, iconoclasts in the church today that don't love the brethren nearly as much as they claim they do.

Their "speech bewrayeth" them, as it were.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by SiblingRevelry

I'm curious to hear the answer to this one. Because my hair is this short. As for the jewelry and makeup, I don't wear them.

The real life answer for me is that I know I will not be asked to take any position in the fellowship I attend and it is due not only to the shortness of the hair but the fact that I keep it short for health reasons, but they're happy to get my offerings.

If your hair is this short for a legitimate medical reason, I see no problem with that at all. Spirit before letter, as it were.

Have you considered a veil, in an attempt to keep Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 regarding if it be a shame for a woman to have short hair, let it be covered (i.e. veiled)?

When my sister-in-law lost her hair during chemo, she wore a veil to cover her head in order to honor what Paul taught.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by SiblingRevelry

The problem with this statement is that biologically, some people present as both genders in their external biology. Some people may have external biology that doesn't match up with their genetics. And some people were operated on as babies because their external biology was decided by a doctor because the child didn't obviously present as male or female. This is not a rare occurrence; it's a daily thing.

Insisting on a "gender distinction" when biology itself doesn't do so is problematic to me.

We ought to have compassion and sympathy for anyone born in such a way. God is the author of life. He knows full well why some people are born genetically different than the majority of the population.

However, we should also realize that people born in such a way are rare exceptions to the rule, and therefore, shouldn't be rolled out as a legitimate reason for changing the rules.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Its sad that OPs are so hung up on such trivial issues while the world suffers and goes to hell.

This is a place where ideas, trivial or not, controversial or otherwise, can be presented, talked about, challenged, dismissed, argued over, and debated.

But it does not follow (i.e. it's a non-sequitur) that just because some OP folks want to use this board for its intended purpose, that OP folks don't care and/or aren't doing anything about the suffering in the world or people going to hell.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This is a place where ideas, trivial or not, controversial or otherwise, can be presented, talked about, challenged, dismissed, argued over, and debated.

But it does not follow (i.e. it's a non-sequitur) that just because some OP folks want to use this board for its intended purpose, that OP folks don't care and/or aren't doing anything about the suffering in the world or people going to hell.

I wish I said that

[ILG]

External standards in Christendom range across the board, but covering up is scriptural due to God not liking the fig leaf thongs of Adam and Eve. Therefore He gave them coats, not little coats, but full coverings. We live in a culture where walking around outdoors in your underwear isn't a big problem, but God has a problem with public nudity? Therefore covering yourself shouldn't be much of a hurdle. A woman looking like a woman, and a man looking like a man shouldn't be too much for God to ask for, but He wants the separation of the genders, not only in attire, but in leadership. Still all principles, yet ending up as rules that God made, and man chooses to adhere by.

All principles made into rules by men who want to measure and judge who is following principles and who is not. And yet, the bible says judge not lest ye be judged.

Of course I'm not saying that, what I would like to say is this..industrialized church complex has gotten to a place where the pendulum swung right off its hinges. We are coming to a place where the mega church isn't cutting it, and the church on the corner is just in a holding pattern until Jesus returns. So, while conservative Pentecost is a forum's convenient whipping boy, we need to stand back from the painting and realize it looks like a used baby diaper.

And pentecost is doing better? Look at the divorce rate in OP. Look at the pregnancy rate. Rules don't internalize principles.

You name the denomination and we can find the fly in the ointment which causes the perfume of Christ to stink. From Hindu Gurus to Brooklyn Rabbis you have corruption, that's why every religion should be judged by its best examples. Not by its worst, yet that is how we are wired, to only stare at the zit on the girl's nose, and not her face, or deeper than that, her character.

Every religion has it's best examples and they are all exemplary.

I don't see that as clear cut as you do, because I have friends from different religions who are ministers of those religions. They tell me about the same problems, which pretty much leads me to believe that we are dealing more with a maturity problem than anything else. We aren't Buddhists, Hindus, Rabbinical Jew or Roman Catholics we believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and allowing that Spirit to take full control to lead us into all truth. Therefore we should have more on the ball than other religions, but sadly we don't usually keep the main thing the main thing (thank you Brother T.F. Tenney)

Same problems. Yes! The SAME problems!! So the rules aren't making pentecost better. I came in from the outside and was promised so many things that simply weren't true. Because the IDEA is that these rules make things better, but they, in fact, don't. And they can make things worse.

They appeared beautifully holy like white wash, but inwardly they were filled with rotten death. Wolves dressed to appear like the flock.

Yet, we don't beat up all the sheep because some wolves were caught dressing like them, nor do we start dressing like goats because wolves are partial to sheep's clothing.

I don't fault conservative dress. Each family needs to make it's own choice. But don't use it as a measuring rod as to who is in the kindgom. Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Still can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because there are counterfeit 100 dollar bills out there doesn't mean you are going to stop taking them when you cash your paycheck. Principles is what we shoot for, and rules are the byproducts we end up with, yet we are to be fruit inspectors. Because a bad tree (while it still looks like a tree) cannot produce good fruit, and a good tree (while it still looks like a tree) cannot produce bad fruit. Therefore we are admonished to KNOW the tree (which looks like all the other trees) by its fruit.

This isn't throwing out the baby with the bath water. Throw out the rules that measure others. Throw out the rules that hide sin behind man made doctrine. Keep the principles for godly living. Make rules for your family not other adults who are capable themselves to make their own rules.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I wish I said that

Your post was funnier though.

[KeptByTheWord]

VS: I don't have time today to respond to your post. However, in a nutshell it seems that your view of makeup is presented as a general matter of pride for women, and my view is presented that a woman wanting to look presentable can wear light makeup, and look presentable, and doesn't have to be a matter of pride.... anyway I guess you see things your way, and I see them mine. Must run... have a blessed day.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

All principles made into rules by men who want to measure and judge who is following principles and who is not. And yet, the bible says judge not lest ye be judged.

Sis, you can't use only verse 1 of Matthew 7. Because if you do you do harm to the true intent of what Jesus' is trying to say with the verse first. Jesus uses the first verse to set up His point about judging. Therefore He goes on to speak about if you judge you best be not involved in the same behavior as the one you are trying to help. It is what you and I are involved in at this very moment when we are having a discussion in this thread. The word κρίνω means to decide, or call into question. Jesus makes his statement in the first verse then uses the analogy of a friend helping his friend remove a speck of dust. Yet, the one friend has instead of a speck a beam. This was to not only show hypocrisy but how much hypocrisy can cause a blindness which will hinder ministerial work. Jesus then tells his students that they must first remove the problem which is causing their hypocrisy, then once that is removed then and only then can they see clearly enough to make a proper decision through a judgement.

You can't even have ministers, teachers, counselors, or even parents if the admonishment of not to judge began and ended in the first verse.

One thing in Churchanity that really gets things jacked up is that people take verses and abbreviate them to only use the portion which suits their doctrine or argument. By doing this they loose the whole meaning of what the writer was trying to convey to his audience. If the church couldn't make a judgement the apostle couldn't of ever made a judgement concerning the man who was sleeping with his father's wife, that the man be put out of the church. Oh, there is another rule! In the church you couldn't sleep with your father's wife.

Originally Posted by ILG

And pentecost is doing better? Look at the divorce rate in OP. Look at the pregnancy rate. Rules don't internalize principles.

I think I mentioned the Pew report? They don't gather their statistics from One God Apostolic movement, they gather their research from the mainstream of Christendom. Yet, I believe I mentioned that you have rotten examples in every denomination. Why still focus on zits when you have good content within the person?

Originally Posted by ILG

Every religion has it's best examples and they are all exemplary.

The best examples shows how the religion should be practiced if one is a true devotee. If someone is researching Islam, you want to find those who best portray the the model of the follower of Islam. So, may I ask you, have you ever seen the best example of the conservative Apostolic movement?

Originally Posted by ILG

Same problems. Yes! The SAME problems!! So the rules aren't making pentecost better.

Again, we have to have an understanding between us that we both know that the principles should make the rules. Paul is making and setting rules in all his epistles which are based on Biblical principles, and he had problems insomuch that all those in Asia turned their backs on him.

To say the rules aren't making Pentecost better is like walking into the kitchen while the family is having breakfast seeing milk spilled on the floor and blaming everyone sitting at the table for the spillage. There are people who are seated quietly eating who don't have a clue as to what your talking about because they don't spill milk, especially the milk you are speaking about.

I know people, and you have to know people who are conservative standard adhering Apostolic One God Pennycostals who are the best examples of Christians you have ever seen.

Therefore since these people do exist we can't say they aren't being helped by their religion. Obviously they are being helped, and even generations of them.

Originally Posted by ILG

I came in from the outside and was promised so many things that simply weren't true. Because the IDEA is that these rules make things better, but they, in fact, don't. And they can make things worse.

I came in from the outside and was promised so many things and I got everything I was promised. Now I don't know if you got the same deal I got, or what you were promised. But since you brought up your personal experience and since it sounds similar to my own I thought I would make the comment. I came I saw I stayed because it is what I was looking for in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I had some rough things happen to me, but instead of judging the whole system flawed I came into this with the understanding that people can be real disappointments.

Since that is the human experience and whether your an Apostolic or in a motorcycle club, you can be assured that people will not only let you down....but....

Some will also put you on the Preterist wall of shame, throw you out of the church, run off the rest of the saints to sell the church property for 1.5 million, call every preacher you ever knew to tell them your an enemy of the State, and top it off by trying to destroy your wife.

Oh did I type all that?

Sorry, but while the leaves may have fallen, the tree still stands.

Originally Posted by ILG

I don't fault conservative dress. Each family needs to make it's own choice. But don't use it as a measuring rod as to who is in the kindgom. Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

This isn't throwing out the baby with the bath water. Throw out the rules that measure others. Throw out the rules that hide sin behind man made doctrine. Keep the principles for godly living. Make rules for your family not other adults who are capable themselves to make their own rules.

You can't babysit adults! I'm a minister, not the school principle. I don't make people kneel on books while holding out pencils and reciting the tower of Babel isn't a rocket, the tower of Babel isn't a rocket, the tower of Babel isn't a rocket. The rules come from the principles, the principles are the basis (or should be) of the rules. It is like this, people have to have their own convictions based on an understanding of the scriptures. They must be led by the power of God, and not the power of emotion, coercion, fear of the madding crowd. When someone has a real experience with the living God and His word they will be led into all truth, not just some.