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  #41  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:45 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Who can baptise a repentant believer? Can just anyone?

Or must a proper scriptural baptism be performed by one who is authorised by God to do such?

Who has God authorized?
The Bible says that we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood.

the priesthood of the believers authorizes all believers to baptize.
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  #42  
Old 09-17-2014, 07:52 AM
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

In that the church is the body of CHRIST, and that Christ is the Head of the CHURCH, I find it impossible to say that there was ever a time since Pentecost where there wasn't a church, since the Head and Christ of the church has been alive and well since His resurrection.

After all, Jesus can't be separated from His own Body.

A body-less head?

The Spirit draws people to the Father, and God is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him through Jesus Christ His Son. I have no doubt there have always been saved people in the world, from "this is that" forward, otherwise, we have periods of time in which Jesus Christ was the Head of NOTHING.
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  #43  
Old 09-17-2014, 09:37 AM
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
In that the church is the body of CHRIST, and that Christ is the Head of the CHURCH, I find it impossible to say that there was ever a time since Pentecost where there wasn't a church, since the Head and Christ of the church has been alive and well since His resurrection.

After all, Jesus can't be separated from His own Body.

A body-less head?

The Spirit draws people to the Father, and God is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him through Jesus Christ His Son. I have no doubt there have always been saved people in the world, from "this is that" forward, otherwise, we have periods of time in which Jesus Christ was the Head of NOTHING.
Amen!
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  #44  
Old 09-17-2014, 10:28 AM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
In that the church is the body of CHRIST, and that Christ is the Head of the CHURCH, I find it impossible to say that there was ever a time since Pentecost where there wasn't a church, since the Head and Christ of the church has been alive and well since His resurrection.

After all, Jesus can't be separated from His own Body.

A body-less head?

The Spirit draws people to the Father, and God is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him through Jesus Christ His Son. I have no doubt there have always been saved people in the world, from "this is that" forward, otherwise, we have periods of time in which Jesus Christ was the Head of NOTHING.
The problem lies in the insistence that most Apostolics make-- that there has been a "church" that has always presented the doctrine of salvation as the UPCI presents it.

There hasn't always been a church that teaches that one must repent of their sins, get baptized in the Name of Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues in order to be saved. It is hogwash to suggest there has always been a church that has presented such a skewed view of the scriptures when it comes to salvation.
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  #45  
Old 09-17-2014, 10:35 AM
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
The problem lies in the insistence that most Apostolics make-- that there has been a "church" that has always presented the doctrine of salvation as the UPCI presents it.

There hasn't always been a church that teaches that one must repent of their sins, get baptized in the Name of Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues in order to be saved. It is hogwash to suggest there has always been a church that has presented such a skewed view of the scriptures when it comes to salvation.
Almost every denomination teaches that they are the true church, so it is not out of the ordinary for the UPCI to make such a claim.

It is a self-delusion that inflicts every denomination.
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  #46  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:21 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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There's 100X more evidence that Arianism/Jehovah's Witnesses can trace their movement through history than OPs.

If they're not the true church, how much less the OP movement which cannot produce a single movement in 20 centuries that held to their fundamental doctrine?

The fact is the true church (the believing church) was blended (especially after the 3rd century) with the visible church. Wheat and Tares. Some splits, some corruption, but the true church of Christ endured through the centuries. Those believers who repented of their sins and were regenerated by the Holy Spirit are the true church. Its the same today.

Would even the most ardent defender of OPism deny that even within what they consider to be the "true" church (OP movement) that there are truly regenerated and those who are not saved.

Do we not consider the parable of the sower?

IMO it is a mistake to look for any outward org/denomination/movement/sect and call it the church, and this error is compounded if your looking for a group that denied the trinity, baptized in JN, claimed all saved people must speak in tongues, and then the conglomerate of standards.

You'll never find that ever in church history. The Montanists are your best bet, and of course the most notable Montanist is Tertullian (the father of trinitarianism).

You can jump hundreds of years to the Irvingites, which don't fit OP credentials.

I admit I find it amusing that some will believe that the OP church has always been on the basis of shoddy scholarship and blind faith. But deny the achievements, advancement of the gospel, heroic martyrdoms, contributions to church music, practice, and scripture translation, and salvation of trinitarians despite all the evidence readily available.

I searched in vain for OPs through history. Read Bernards History, Weisser, Arnold. Then Schaff, Lattourette, and Bruce.

Its wishful thinking. Its not impossible that there could be a pocket group here or there in history (though no one, including Arnold, has ever found one), but even if a couple tiny regional sects were found scattered in history, would that be good reason to believe the "true OP church" has an unbroken line back to the apostles?

I think the bigger problem on the part of OPs is the assumption they have the apostles doctrine right. Seeing as how 1)OPs have to explain away and redefine large portions of the epistles (especially Romans) and the gospels (especially John)
2) the early church apparently DIDNT come to the modern OP conclusions on the water/Spirit doctrine since we find no evidence of it outside of the Bible even in the 1st and 2nd centuries
3)It seems plausible if not likely that the entire OP foundation, identity, philosophy, and tradition is all the result of a misunderstanding of scripture thus resulting in an inaccurate understanding not only of what Bible Salvation is but also of the true church in history (hence the total absence prior to 1913 of any movement that taught what modern OPs do).

We also have to consider that we have plenty of documentation of the existence of many schismatic and heretical groups existing in church history, and it seems HIGHLY unlikely that ALL references to and works of historical OP have been lost or destroyed when so many other groups have endured the centuries. THEN to assert THAT was actually the true church of JC established that Jesus referenced in Caesarea Philippi and established in Acts 2 seems preposterous to me. And at one time I wanted it to be true more than any one....but its not.
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Last edited by Jason B; 09-17-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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  #47  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:27 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Seriously? God has assemblies of people called to assemble together as a kingdom jural society... but those assemblies aren't "physical assemblies"...????

I really don't know how to converse with someone who rejects the basic meanings of simple words. I guess a term can just mean whatever we want it to mean.
oh, you may be completely correct there! i just read it differently--but i read everything differently i guess
how does one determine who is a 'living stone?' Is this for a man, or group of men, to determine? Can anyone really claim 'ecclesia' for another, or for that matter themselves? Personally, i have found myself included at times, and at other times excluded (mostly by matters of pride or whatever)

Last edited by shazeep; 09-17-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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  #48  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:33 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Almost every denomination teaches that they are the true church, so it is not out of the ordinary for the UPCI to make such a claim.

It is a self-delusion that inflicts every denomination.
ty. this was my point. I might go a step further and say that any group that feels this to the exclusion of all others is by definition not ecclesia.
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  #49  
Old 09-17-2014, 02:08 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
In that the church is the body of CHRIST, and that Christ is the Head of the CHURCH, I find it impossible to say that there was ever a time since Pentecost where there wasn't a church, since the Head and Christ of the church has been alive and well since His resurrection.

After all, Jesus can't be separated from His own Body.

A body-less head?

The Spirit draws people to the Father, and God is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him through Jesus Christ His Son. I have no doubt there have always been saved people in the world, from "this is that" forward, otherwise, we have periods of time in which Jesus Christ was the Head of NOTHING.
Amen
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  #50  
Old 09-17-2014, 02:31 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

Quote:
I think the bigger problem on the part of OPs is the assumption they have the apostles doctrine right. Seeing as how 1)OPs have to explain away and redefine large portions of the epistles (especially Romans) and the gospels (especially John)
It looks to me more like Evangelicals explain away Acts and redefine John.

Quote:
2) the early church apparently DIDNT come to the modern OP conclusions on the water/Spirit doctrine since we find no evidence of it outside of the Bible even in the 1st and 2nd centuries
Do we need evidence of it outside the Bible? Absolutely not! That's why we are called "Apostolic". Anything OUTSIDE the Bible or speaking different than whats in it is heretical.

And when you use the terms water/spirit in relation to salvation have you never heard of the Catholic Church? That is precisely what they have always believed. Altho they approach it from a wrong perspective (baptizing infants and confirmation ritual) it originally came from Jesus teaching on being born of water and spirit.

Quote:
3)It seems plausible if not likely that the entire OP foundation, identity, philosophy, and tradition is all the result of a misunderstanding of scripture thus resulting in an inaccurate understanding not only of what Bible Salvation is but also of the true church in history (hence the total absence prior to 1913 of any movement that taught what modern OPs do).
The Apostolic foundation is found ONLY among Oneness Pentecostal groups today. I have searched the Bible now on this very matter for the last 36 years on the matter as one starting out from an Evangelical beginning. None of the Evangelical groups are patterned after the Acts and preaching of the Apostles.

It was because I compared the teachings of Evangelical groups like I was part of with that of the Apostles that I came to separate from them. They were false teachers offering salvation a different way.

Now as to the philosophy and traditions that have come up among them much of it no doubt is merely the doctrine of men.
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