Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Groups that really believe in Oneness but dont believe Jesus is the Father.

Unitarians. Arians.

Unitarians deny that Jesus had any divinity residing in Him. They see Jesus only as a flawed human being like you and me. So... you really can't say that I'm a Unitarian. In fact... tell me if you agree that the following is Oneness (I posed it in a previous post to votivesoul):

That Jesus had a complete human nature and complete divine nature at the same time is the teaching of Scripture, but we cannot separate these two natures in His earthly life. It is apparent that Jesus had a human will, mind, spirit, soul, and body, but it is equally apparent that He had the fullness of the Godhead resident in that body. From our finite view, His human spirit and His divine Spirit were inseparable.

The divine Spirit could be separated from the human body by death, but His humanity was more than a human body – the shell of a human – with God inside. He was a human in body, soul, and spirit with the fullness of the Spirit of God dwelling in that body, soul, and spirit. Jesus differed from an ordinary human (who can be filled with the Spirit of God) in that He had all of God’s nature within Him. He possessed the unlimited power, authority, and character of God. Furthermore, in contrast to a born-again, Spirit-filled human, the Spirit of God was inextricably, and inseparably joined with the humanity of Jesus.

The humanity of Christ prayed, cried, learned obedience, and suffered. The divine nature was in control and God was faithful to His own plan, but the human nature had to obtain help from the Spirit and, had to learn obedience to the divine plan. Surely all these verses of Scripture show that Jesus was fully human – that He had every attribute of humanity except the sinful nature inherited from the Fall. If we deny the humanity of Jesus, we encounter a problem with the conception of redemption and atonement. Not being fully human, could His sacrifice be sufficient to redeem mankind? Could He really be a true substitute for us in death? Could He truly qualify as our kinsman redeemer?

As it relates to pre-existence…

The Word or Logos can mean the plan or thought as it existed in the mind of God. This thought was a predestined plan – an absolutely certain future event, - and therefore it had a reality attached to it that no human thought could ever have. The Word can also mean the plan or thought of God expressed in the flesh, that is in the Son.

This explanation isn't Oneness???

[Light]

Paul said then commeth the end. (The end of the church age)
If Jesus was the Father (God) at any time in history (past or present) why will he present the church to God the Father at the end?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Light

Paul said then commeth the end. (The end of the church age)
If Jesus was the Father (God) at any time in history (past or present) why will he present the church to God the Father at the end?

The Son of God, the man Jesus Christ who has the Father residing within His being, will present all things to the Father.

[Aquila]

The end result of this theology is that the man, Jesus Christ, is the Son of God... meaning He is an authentic human being with a human body, soul, and spirit... yet the Father indwells, and permeates, this human being's entire being (body, soul, and spirit). Jesus is therefore a man who is also God. So, when we say that Jesus is the Father what we mean is that the man Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is also the Father.

This is NOT Unitarianism. Unitarians deny Christ's divinity and consider Him only a human being. When discussing Oneness we should use the very terms Jesus used when describing His "oneness" with the Father:

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray and speak of His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

The flesh of Christ?


Just say Jesus, okay bro.


Jesus was a boy that had a mother. She even had to cut his placenta off at birth, she changed his diaper, he became a adolescent, a teenager and finally a man......

Bro. Sean, how dare you...thats sacriledge!...LOL

2 Cor. 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also sufferr whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation

Paul refered to Jesus as Christ in scripture, but yet you make it sound like I shouldn't. I know people who have been christians for several years who are now starting to ask questions about the oneness of God and because of unsatisfacotory explanations they are doubting.

Jesus prayed to God, The Holy Ghost coming down descending like a dove, voice from heaven saying my son in whom I am well pleased, and Jesus praying in the garden of gethesmene to God. Some will say that is the flesh and spirit communing with one another, but someone just said that God dies when the flesh died. By that definition then why did He need to pray.

Also the scripture teaches that God doesn't tempt and neither is He tempted, but the scripture also teaches that Jesus was tempted like all other men. I believe there is a distinction between the flesh and the spirit and they are not the same, but they are one. We will never see God only Jesus Christ the express image of God. The name Jesus belongs to God and when I say Jesus is God that is why. I don't believe the flesh is God, but it is one with God.

Jesus said I and my father are one. The Father is revealed in Christ.

[good samaritan]

So, when we say that Jesus is the Father what we mean is that the man Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is also the Father.

When discussing Oneness we should use the very terms Jesus used when describing His "oneness" with the Father

Jesus never used the terms "I am the Father" nor did anyone else in the scripture. Sometimes people try to prove their point so strongly that they add things that aren't there. He said I and my Father are one and He said I am in the Father. He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father (He is the image of the invisible). The way we define things will have bearing on whether we can convert trinitarians to the truth.

Scripture never says we must understand the Godhead in order to be saved,
(some understanding is necessary to understand Jesus name baptism and not the titles) but we must be born again. That is repentance, Jesus name baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Paul refered to Jesus as Christ in scripture, but yet you make it sound like I shouldn't. I know people who have been christians for several years who are now starting to ask questions about the oneness of God and because of unsatisfacotory explanations they are doubting.

Jesus prayed to God, The Holy Ghost coming down descending like a dove, voice from heaven saying my son in whom I am well pleased, and Jesus praying in the garden of gethesmene to God. Some will say that is the flesh and spirit communing with one another, but someone just said that God dies when the flesh died. By that definition then why did He need to pray.

Also the scripture teaches that God doesn't tempt and neither is He tempted, but the scripture also teaches that Jesus was tempted like all other men. I believe there is a distinction between the flesh and the spirit and they are not the same, but they are one. We will never see God only Jesus Christ the express image of God. The name Jesus belongs to God and when I say Jesus is God that is why. I don't believe the flesh is God, but it is one with God.

Jesus said I and my father are one. The Father is revealed in Christ.

Great post bro.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Jesus never used the terms "I am the Father" nor did anyone else in the scripture. Sometimes people try to prove their point so strongly that they add things that aren't there. He said I and my Father are one and He said I am in the Father. He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father (He is the image of the invisible). The way we define things will have bearing on whether we can convert trinitarians to the truth.

Scripture never says we must understand the Godhead in order to be saved,
(some understanding is necessary to understand Jesus name baptism and not the titles) but we must be born again. That is repentance, Jesus name baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

True, I have never seen someone make the Godhead a big deal prior to conversion, with the exception of staunch religious folks. Most folks just want to be saved without all the details.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Unitarians deny that Jesus had any divinity residing in Him. They see Jesus only as a flawed human being like you and me. So... you really can't say that I'm a Unitarian. In fact... tell me if you agree that the following is Oneness (I posed it in a previous post to votivesoul):

That Jesus had a complete human nature and complete divine nature at the same time is the teaching of Scripture, but we cannot separate these two natures in His earthly life. It is apparent that Jesus had a human will, mind, spirit, soul, and body, but it is equally apparent that He had the fullness of the Godhead resident in that body. From our finite view, His human spirit and His divine Spirit were inseparable.

The divine Spirit could be separated from the human body by death, but His humanity was more than a human body – the shell of a human – with God inside. He was a human in body, soul, and spirit with the fullness of the Spirit of God dwelling in that body, soul, and spirit. Jesus differed from an ordinary human (who can be filled with the Spirit of God) in that He had all of God’s nature within Him. He possessed the unlimited power, authority, and character of God. Furthermore, in contrast to a born-again, Spirit-filled human, the Spirit of God was inextricably, and inseparably joined with the humanity of Jesus.

The humanity of Christ prayed, cried, learned obedience, and suffered. The divine nature was in control and God was faithful to His own plan, but the human nature had to obtain help from the Spirit and, had to learn obedience to the divine plan. Surely all these verses of Scripture show that Jesus was fully human – that He had every attribute of humanity except the sinful nature inherited from the Fall. If we deny the humanity of Jesus, we encounter a problem with the conception of redemption and atonement. Not being fully human, could His sacrifice be sufficient to redeem mankind? Could He really be a true substitute for us in death? Could He truly qualify as our kinsman redeemer?

As it relates to pre-existence…

The Word or Logos can mean the plan or thought as it existed in the mind of God. This thought was a predestined plan – an absolutely certain future event, - and therefore it had a reality attached to it that no human thought could ever have. The Word can also mean the plan or thought of God expressed in the flesh, that is in the Son.

This explanation isn't Oneness???

Brother, this name calling that they use is just a way to misrepresent you and get you off the subject. You are right on target when explaining the oneness, and they are reaching for some religion that has a miniscule similarity, thus labeling you. They know exactly what they are doing and are very dishonest. They are "skirting" your point of view with this tactic.

I know that Catholics believe in Jesus, so all Christians are Catholics...LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, this name calling that they use is just a way to misrepresent you and get you off the subject. You are right on target when explaining the oneness, and they are reaching for some religion that has a miniscule similarity, thus labeling you. They know exactly what they are doing and are very dishonest. They are "skirting" your point of view with this tactic.

I know that Catholics believe in Jesus, so all Christians are Catholics...LOL

I know what they are doing. I sincerely would like to know their opinion of what I shared in my previous posts. I'd like to know if they believe these statements are Oneness or not. It might held properly define our terms.