Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[mfblume]

Feast of Unleavened Bread is also called Passover:

Ezekiel 45:21 "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

Matthew 26:17 "Now the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Messiah, saying unto Him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover?"

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our Passover is a slaughter-offering for us: Therefore let us keep the Feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

[mfblume]

Leviticus 23:5-6 KJV In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. (6) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.


Notice the 14th is Passover - ONE DAY. And the 15th is Unleavened Bread. So, if the first three feasts are not grouped together as PASSOVER, why did the scriptures say the PASSOVER is kept for SEVEN DAYS?

Ezekiel 45:21 "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

If Passover is the 14th and Unleavened bread is the 15th, how can Ezekiel say Passover it is a feast of seven days? Simple: The entire set of the first three is named after the first one, Passover. That is what Acts 12 is showing from verse 3 to 4.

Matthew 26:17 "Now the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (THIS SHOWS THAT PASSOVER ENDED THE DAY BEFORE, FOR IT WAS ONLY ONE DAY -- BUT YET THE DISCIPLES REFER TO THE FIRST DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD AS PASSOVER, TOO!) the disciples came to Messiah, saying unto Him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover?"

How could they eat Passover if Passover was the day before, and the feast of unleavened bread already started? Simple: The entire set of the first three is named after the first one, Passover. That is what Acts 12 is showing from verse 3 to 4.

Essentially, Acts 12:3-4 shows the exact same pattern as Matthew 26:17.

[Aquila]

An interesting article I read:

Everyone please forgive me for posting this again but Troy Warr said he did not see it.

A NON-MODALISTIC, NON-TRINITARIAN,
NON-ARIAN VIEW OF THE INCARNATION

In the world of religious confusion a controversy has loomed for two millennia that has centered on the identity of the “Son” and the “Holy Ghost.” What did the writers of the New Testament mean when they referred to the “Son” and the “Holy Ghost?” Are they Person’s, Deities, Gods, manifestations, modes or offices? There is no question about God the Father. He is the one and only God “from whom all blessings flow.” He is divine without question. However, some have elevated the Son and Holy Ghost to the same level with the Father. The Doctrine of the Trinity was formed in order to disprove a heresy called Arianism that denied the deity of Jesus. It was birthed in 325 AD to include Son and later the Holy Ghost in an eternal, heavenly unit of divine Persons who are thought to be coequal Persons. Yet how could the idea of plural deities be reconciled with Deuteronomy 6:4 and the Jewish monotheistic motif of the Old Testament?

The subject of the Godhead becomes less difficult when the humanity of Jesus is given its proper place. He is supposed to be center stage, for He is the main character in the plan of redemption. Mary’s baby is the central theme of the entire Bible (John 5:39, Luke 24:27). He has been given “all power” in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18), a “name which is above every name” (Philippians 2:9), and has "preeminence" over “all things” (Colossians 1:18). Yet, the humanity of the Son is one of the most neglected subjects in the Bible. This means that without a clear view of the humanity of Jesus, clarity goes out the window and ambiguity takes over.

The Incarnation involved the entirety of the humanity of Christ and that would include both His human flesh and human spirit united with the Father. Therefore the entirety of the “man Christ Jesus” was an extension of the Father similar to how the Words of God were an extension of Himself at the Creation (John 1:1). The Incarnation marked the beginning of the New Creation that will replace the old creation. Until the New Creation is fully implemented the broken, scared resurrected human body of the “man Christ Jesus” will serve as the evidence of the resurrection and the proof of God’s promises. Then after the Old Creation has passed away and all enemies are under His feet, Jesus will become the “light” of the city forever (Revelation 21:23), but the Incarnation does not cease.
This means the Son is not a separate deity but the glorified and resurrected human body of the “man Christ Jesus.” He is the human representative of God to the entire Creation. He was “made of a woman” (Galatians 4:4), and was the “only begotten” of the Father (John 1:14) and the “visible image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15 NLT) who also “sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command” (Hebrews 1:3 NLT). As a glorified human being He sets on His Father’s throne in the heavenlies and reigns supremely over the cosmos (Revelation 3:12).
Inasmuch as the Son derives His power and authority from God the Father and “can do nothing of himself” (John 5:19), He is divine but is not a separate deity. This glorified human body was eternally joined to God the Father at His birth in Bethlehem. This unity of humanity and deity in heaven is similar to when He was on earth (Hebrews 13:8), He was distinct bur not separate. He has the colossal task of representing His followers before the Judge of all the earth, pleading for mercy and grace and making intercession for us (Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25, Revelation 2:5). He represents us before the throne of God in the form of an “advocate” (I John 2:2). This human “mediator” (I Timothy 2:5) will continue in this office until “he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power” and “all enemies” are made subject to Him (I Corinthians 15:24-28). Any speculation that the Son is a separate deity from the Father has absolutely no biblical bases. The concept of co-equality between Father and Son are canceled out by the fact that the Son was “given all power” in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:19). If He were a pre-existent member of the Trinity then “all power” would be something He already possessed.

The “Holy Ghost” is the human spirit of the “man Christ Jesus” joined to the Spirit of God. The fact that His human spirit was just as much a part of the Incarnation as was His physical body is often overlooked. He was “in all things…made like unto his brethren” (Hebrews 2:17). And since every other human being has a human spirit there is no reason to doubt the reality of the wholeness of Jesus’ humanity. The Bible says that as a child He “grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him” (Luke 2:40), He “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” (Luke 2:52). He “learned obedience” by the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8) and “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). One author said, “In every way that we humans can speak of our humanity and our relationship to God, so could Jesus, except for sin” (UPCI Manual p. 174).

Then after submitting to His Father’s will and enduring the death of a criminal, the spirit of Jesus was given to God on the cross. One of His last utterances while on the cross was “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46). This perfected human spirit, which had already been made one with the Spirit of God, was then given to the church at Pentecost and now dwells in all believers (Acts 2). Like a vaccine injection prevents infection and disease so the human spirit of Jesus also overcomes all spiritual disease in the believer’s life. Thus our salvation involves being filled with both the human spirit of Jesus and the eternal Spirit of God that are not two Spirits but one. The plural pronouns “we” and “our” are used in John 14:23, but it is not plural deities. The Incarnation consists of one God and one man, which have been made ONE. Thus it is impossible for a believer to receive the Spirit of God without also receiving the human spirit of Jesus.

“God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Galatians 4:6).

The Gospel of John clearly explains that the “Holy Ghost” could not be given before Christ’s death and resurrection (John 7:39) evidently because it involved the human ingredient of Jesus’ perfected human Spirit. The post-resurrection “Holy Ghost” was somewhat different than the pre-resurrection “Holy Ghost,” else John would have never given us that detail. As God waited until the “man Christ Jesus” experienced life on earth and overcame all temptation on earth to send the “Holy Ghost,” so God has made available a spiritual experience that would turn lost sinners into “new creatures.” This was similar to the days of Noah when the Spirit of God “waited” for the Ark to be built (I Peter 3:20). Likewise, God waited for the perfection of His Son and sent forth the “Spirit of the Son” into our hearts to help and comfort us in all the concerns of this earthly life.
This explains how the process of the Spirit of the Son makes intercession through us to the Father (Romans 8:26-27). Otherwise if the Holy Ghost was only the Father (as some say) then we would have a major contradiction because that would indicate that the Father was praying to the Father. The ingredient of the human spirit of Jesus contributes to the effectiveness of the post-resurrection Holy Ghost, which was much different than the pre-resurrection Holy Ghost.

Because of the Incarnation, God knows the sufferings of his people and how to comfort them. After the sufferings of Jesus were completed He become the universal Mediator, and that mediation is two fold. Mediation for us occurs when the “Son” intercedes to the Father in our behalf (I John 2:1, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25) and when the “Spirit” (Holy Ghost) enables the believer to pray according to the “will of God” (Romans 8:26-27). And through the human “conscience,” the Holy Ghost is continually “bearing witness” by either “accusing or else excusing” what the believer says and does (Romans 2:15). This “accusing” and “excusing” indicates spiritual guidance that was an attribute of the Comforter (John 16:13) and is similar to our being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14). This is why we are warned to never “grieve” the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) or “quench the Spirit” (I Thessalonians 5:19), for in doing so we interrupt the mediation process of the Spirit of the Son.

A good description of how mediation works was given by Job when He wished for a “daysman,” or a mediator that would “lay his hand” on “both” God and Job (Job 9:33). From this we understand that Jesus has one hand on God in heaven and the other hand on believers on earth. Yet, this in no way indicates a plurality of divinities but the remarkable works of a sovereign God and the bringing forth of a “great salvation.” The human Spirit of Jesus and the fleshly body of Jesus became the two arms of Jehovah that reached for a world of lost sinners. What an awesome God!

Mike Conn

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then you of all people should reject the idea that PASCHA is correctly translated EASTER. I struggled with that one point, too, Sean. I have the JACK CHICK comic you get the idea of having no bible from, too! Admit it, that's where you got the idea of no bible today! I believe the KJV is the translation to use. I have all the books and still agree with them all about it. But their excuse for EASTER is so inane and inept I cannot begin to describe it. They just do not care what a greek word really means, but try to insist KJV is flawless more than they try to know what the textus receptus actually said. the textus receptus is right in saying PASCHA. But the KJV is wrong in saying EASTER. Wrong as the day is long. NOTHING ABOUT THE WORD PASCHA implies easter in any sense of the term. And I think it's blasphemous to say it does, as you admitted it is pagan.

Wrong as the day is long-- this made me chuckle.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The KJV is not translated into an "outdated language". The problrm is English has been degraded to the point that many modern English speakers can only barely understand their own native tongue. While I do not claim the KJV is PERFECT it is better than any modern translation I've seen, on several levels:

that is just not true. Study languages and you'll see that all languages evolve over time. The English they spoke in 1600 is not the same as today. We don't see "Ye" and "thou" because our language has evolved.

Many words used THEN have evolved in meaning. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant because it still means the language of the KJV is outdated...from an era that is long past, from a time when words did not always mean what they mean today.

Yes Victorian English is outdated

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Mike,

Leveticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Unless I am reading this wrong the Lord's passover happens before the feast of unleavened bread. (In other words passover is not the same thing as the feast of unleavened bread)

The context in Acts where pascha is translated as easter is a context where passover already happened and they were on into the days of unleavened bread which levitcus seems to show is after passover.

Since peter was going to be held till a certain pascha which was after the days of unleavened bread I think the translators must of reasoned that context showed that pascha could not have meant passover here since passover would have already occured before the days of unleavened bread.

They ate Unleavened bread for 7 days.

Notice it says "Then were the days of unleavened bread"..Days. Plural

Act 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

The Feast was approaching..it was a 7 day Holiday that began with the Passover.

Passover is a major Jewish Holy day. So Harod waited for it to end.


Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was a week-long remembrance that consecrated the coming season. It may be considered an extension of the Passover feast rather than an independent holiday. The biblical texts intertwine the two feasts, with the Passover celebrated on the first day of the feast—the 14th of Abib—and the Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated on the following day—the 15th of Abib (Exod 13:3–10; Lev 23:4–8). The Feast of Unleavened Bread continued for seven days and required daily offerings. It concluded with a convocation and rest from laborious activity (Lev 23:8).
The feast demanded a rejection of leavened bread from the Israelites’ meals, households, and storage places (Deut 16:4)
While the Feast of Unleavened Bread is not a pilgrimage feast, it was often celebrated in Jerusalem, since Passover’s pilgrimage would have already occurred. This feast likely included the waving of the first fruits, signaling the dedication of the coming growing season (Exod 34:26; Lev 23:10–14).


Swann, J. T. (2012). Feasts and Festivals of Israel. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

However sometimes Passover includes the feast, because the two were combined into one Holy event


The Passover with the Disciples
17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ ” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Mt 26:17–19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

22 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Lk 22:1–2). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

For you KJV onliest out there

Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Guys, I tried to make you see a certain post with a link, showing Easter as we see in the book of Acts was AFTER the days of unleavened bread(which was after the Passover).

You would not investigate it.

I read it. It was very flawed and without understanding of the Biblical genre of the NT and how words are used. But that is what I have come to expect from people that call the KJV The only True Bible

Also it does not say it was after the days of Unleavened Bread was over.

They used the word Passover to cover both Holy Days

Luk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching.

Remember Luke wrote Acts too

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

that is just not true. Study languages and you'll see that all languages evolve over time. The English they spoke in 1600 is not the same as today. We don't see "Ye" and "thou" because our language has evolved.

Many words used THEN have evolved in meaning. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant because it still means the language of the KJV is outdated...from an era that is long past, from a time when words did not always mean what they mean today.

Yes Victorian English is outdated

Yes, indeed.

Gone are the days when an "s" looked like an "f", and cry was spelled crie and the letter "j" was still considered an "i". It's way more than just thee's and thou's and ye's and wherefore's. "V" and "u" were at one time indistinguishable, as well.

The original 1611 is nigh on unreadable to most people, not just because their modern English reading skills have declined, but because the original 1611 version doesn't even look like the English we know today.

It even included the Apocrypha!

There have been revisions, not to the text, but to the English language, the spelling, the morphology of certain letters, and etc.

I have a reprint. It's a headache trying to read some parts of it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Its sad that the Lord left us in a world full of False Bibles. There is no exact "standard" of truth for us these days at all..

The only alternative is to invent our own exact truth Bible.

This is a bigger task than trying to UNIFY churches or the brethren, if our Bible is error prone and partially wrong.

the Lord did not leave us with the KJV. He left us with a Hebrew OT, a Greek OT and a Greek NT which was later translated into Latin and then into very very old English (NOT the KJV) several times before the KJV was even a twinkle in Jame's eye

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Yes, indeed.

Gone are the days when an "s" looked like an "f", and cry was spelled [/i]crie[/i] and the letter "j" was still considered an "i". It's way more than just thee's and thou's and ye's and wherefore's. "V" and "u" were at one time indistinguishable, as well.

The original 1611 is nigh on unreadable to most people, not just because their modern English reading skills have declined, but because the original 1611 version doesn't even look like the English we know today.

It even included the Apocrypha!

There have been revisions, not to the text, but to the English language, the spelling, the morphology of certain letters, and etc.

I have a reprint. It's a headache trying to read some parts of it.

Give it a good look, if you haven't:

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611-Bible/