"in the Spirit"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Here is a scripture that lets us know that deep spiritual prayer doesn't have to include speaking in tongues.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're praying with the understanding when in your native language.

Yes, I know about praying with the understanding. But isn't all prayer to be Spirit led and spoken "in the Spirit"?

I've been overwhelmed with the Spirit's abiding presence while singing, witnessing, preaching, teaching, praying, etc. In all these instances, I was "in the Spirit". I've even received visions and spiritual impressions while being "in the Spirit". While tongues is definitely something that can only happen while in the Spirit... it isn't the only thing that can happen while one is in the Spirit.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

It isn't strictly one's own spirit that is praying. In fact, the Holy Spirit is also interceding.

Romans 8:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

How is it that it is considered to be our spirit praying, yet the Holy Spirit may also make intercession through us and our prayers? We read...

1 Corinthians 6:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

He is truly the Vine... and we are the branches. Living extensions of Him. The Spirit prays and speaks through our spirit when tongues are taking place. This is also seen when coupled with interpretation. It is the Spirit that is speaking through His abiding presence in our spirit, our inner man. This realization broke upon me after God began using me with regards to tongues and interpretation.

That being said, even when we pray with understanding (as the Spirit leads), we are praying "in the Spirit".

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.

But this scripture speaks about the take over of the Spirit in prayer as "groans" which cannot be put into words. Groans are not the same as other tongues. I'm not saying that the Spirit doesn't pray through us in other tongues because clearly in 1 Cor 14: 14, He does, BUT the Spirit also prays through us without words coming out of our mouths but in groans. I've experienced that. So can you see how perhaps "praying in the Spirit" doesn't necessarily have to be "praying in tongues"? The Spirit can pray through us in different ways and is not limited to only tongues.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.KJV

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But this scripture speaks about the take over of the Spirit in prayer as "groans" which cannot be put into words. Groans are not the same as other tongues. I'm not saying that the Spirit doesn't pray through us in other tongues because clearly in 1 Cor 14: 14, He does, BUT the Spirit also prays through us without words coming out of our mouths but in groans. I've experienced that. So can you see how perhaps "praying in the Spirit" doesn't necessarily have to be "praying in tongues"? The Spirit can pray through us in different ways and is not limited to only tongues.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.KJV

I understand that and have experienced "groaning" many times. I'm just saying that throughout the duration of travail, I have groaned, spoke in tongues, groaned, etc.

IOW, going back and forth. So, yes, groaning is part of travail (for however long you are groaning), but not exclusively groaning. It just simply isn't the only element involved in travail.

The scriptures you cited are not a definite, for me, travail "only" includes groaning. It just doesn't. I couldn't use that scripture and teach it was an "only" element.

I've started out in tongues, gone into groaning. Sometimes I start out groaning and end up speaking in tongues. I know from my intense feelings, that I am in travail. Being that the Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues, I could never instruct anyone that "groaning" is all that is involved. I would feel I was not adequately portraying "travail" correctly if I did that.

Again, I don't see how when the Spirit is present, you will not speak in tongues as well. That is all I am saying.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Again, I don't see how when the Spirit is present, you will not speak in tongues as well. That is all I am saying.

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

I see the scripture as saying "divers" kinds of tongues are different languages and the "gift of tongues" is used for interpretation. I would have to have God show me in the scripture where someone receives the initial evidence, but never speaks in tongues again. That should have nothing to do with being used in Tongues and Interpretation. I know people in that category, but I don't see it in scripture. What people do and don't do is not as important to me as what the scriptures say.

God uses me in all the gifts because I took His Word seriously and prayed that He would. As a new convert, I fasted 5 days for God to use me in the gifts. And I sought that with sincere intent to be useful to the Kingdom of God, not to pin honors on myself. That's how it should be - for the Kingdom of God - for the edification of the church. And let me add, it comes with a price.

The Spirit is what draws people to God. Whether in personal edification or edification of the church, we should seek His gifts.

By reading Acts 19:6 "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied", I see that the gifts were manifested at the outset of the Church.

I came back to share this story. My son practices the drums at church just about every night. When he is finished, he turns and points back to the drums and says, "It's all for your glory, God." This last time, after having never heard himself speak in tongues for years, he began to speak in tongues and came home crying to share his story. So, I encourage anyone that hasn't spoken in tongues in years, keep believing, it will happen. Don't believe people who have settled with only speaking in tongues as initial evidence only.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.

I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.