"in the Spirit"

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So now praying in tongues is an action of the human spirit and NOT by the Spirit of God????

No wonder Pentecost is in the mess it's in nowadays.

Ask Paul, he's the one who said it, Esaias. You cannot see any HUMAN SPIRIT involved? The truth is OUR HUMAN SPIRITS are born again of God's Spirit, Esaias.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Human spirits are born again of God's Spirit, just like human flesh of a child is born from human mother's flesh.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. (17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

And the HUMAN SPIRIT like the most holy place, is where the SPIRITUAL works of God's SPIRIT occur in us and work outwardly.

If you cannot read Paul's words without refusing to accept that he said it was HIS HUMAN SPIRIT praying then that is evidence Pentecost is messed up.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


Of course God's Spirit is involved and tongues would not occur if it wasn't. But His Spirit works with OUR SPIRITS and it occurs. We could not speak in tongues if God's Spirit was not united to our human spirits.

Why do you reject what Paul said here? If you don't reject his words, then how in the world can you say it was not his spirit praying when he said it was? Are you unaware that a man is spirit, soul and body? 1 Thess 5:23?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If I understand you correctly, this is a false dichotomy. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. The abiding Holy Spirit moves through and speaks through what many call the "human spirit".

Where did I backpeddle?

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And praying in the Spirit doesn't require "tongues" per Mizpeh's question.

According to Paul's context in 1 Cor 14 it does. If you want to get outside of 1 Cor 14 and refer to the Spirit of God involved in our praying, then fine. We already said we agreed. But Mizpeh likely referred to 1 Cor 14:14, or else at least knew that verse was somewhere in the bible, and so we responded to it.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It doesn't exclude it, which Mizpeh also didn't disagree on that point.

Amen!

The human spirit in union with God's Spirit upon new birth is what was formerly dead before salvation, like an empty holiest of holies in the temple. Our human spirits come alive and into union with God's Spirit. And through the human spirit God can do many things with His Spirit. Including prayer. And that does not have to include tongues. BUT, when PAUL spoke of prayer in the Spirit he was specifically talking about HIS HUMAN SPIRIT in that instance because he contrasted it from HIS understanding. With our understanding (soul) we pray in native language. We UNDERSTAND what we are praying. But when OUR spirits pray it is in tongues and we cannot understand what we are saying, ourselves! Our understanding is unfruitful.

That's why Paul said earlier that no man understands, not even the speaker, when he speaks in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The translators of the KJV recognized this distinction between God's spirit and the human spirit. so they capitalized the term when in reference to God, but not in reference to human. I do not derive my beliefs from their uses of capitalization of words, but in this case they were right!

It is a case of understanding versus not understanding. And since tongues was the subject of 1 Cor 14, praying in tongues is not praying with understanding.

Too many seem to think that prayer in the spirit is contrasted from prayer when God is not involved, when that is not the point at all. It's like saying someone is in the flesh when some people hear a person not in the spirit. They only know the contrast between ONE SPIRIT, God's, whenever the word SPIRIT is mentioned, and it is ALWAYS contrasting fleshly things from it when it is mentioned. And that is not the case at all.

Esaias thought prayer in the human spirit meant God's Spirit is not involved, and that is not the case at all. Aquila thought prayer in the spirit meant the same thing, but in the context Paul wrote of it both are wrong.

Just because I pray in the understanding does not mean I pray without the presence of God leading me. That's what you folks seem to think Paul was contrasting, and it wasn't.

If we want to talk about leading of God's Spirit, then yes prayer does not have to involve tongues. But Paul was not speaking of that at all in 1 Cor 14. AND THAT IS ALL WE ARE TRYING TO SAY.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The human spirit unites to the Spirit of God to become one. Like the flesh unites in marriage between a man and a woman. But Paul still said HIS SPIRIT. Just like a man and wife each STILL have distinct flesh, so it is with our spirits and God's., which of course was with God's Spirit.

Just accept it. Paul prayed with HIS spirit. His understanding was not a faculty of his spirit. The SOUL is what understands.



The human spirit is the faculty about us that discerns and communes with God. The soul does not. Spirit and soul are not synonymous. We can be grieved in human spirit. A human spirit that is wounded is worse than a broken leg. lol

There are all sorts of passages that speak of the human spirit.

Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.

2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

BOTH God's Spirit and our own are involved in anything SPIRITual. The SPIRITual part of us is obviously our spirits.

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

[Aquila]

Some people are so caught up on exact wordings of things that they'd deny Jesus ever used the bathroom because it's not worded exactly like that in Scripture. C'mon guys... it's a spiritual book. Not a legal manual.

[shazeep]

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

Where did he say that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, you believe that just because Paul wrote, "my spirit", the prayer isn't "in the Spirit" and that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be involved???

No. I already said the Spirit of God is involved. You're not reading what we post.