The Anti-christ IS the "restrainer"? - Page 4

Esaias · #31 01-25-2015, 01:02 AM

My interlinear (Berry's) reads "monon ho katechon arti heos ek mesou genetai". Berry translates it as "only (there is) he who restrains at present until out of (the) midst he be (gone)".

Seems the Greek is saying "one who (or "one that") restrains currently until out from the midst he comes to be". I am not sure what genetai refers to: is it one who restrains? Or is it the one to be revealed (next verse, the lawless one)?

In other words, is Paul saying tat which restrains will come to be out from the midst? Or is he saying the restrainer does so until the lawless one is come out of the midst?

Seems the simplest reading is that there is something restraining the revealing of the lawless one until that lawless one comes out of the midst.

Another question is "out of the midst of what"? It could be the phrase means out of the midst as though in between two things (thus the translation "out of the way"), although I suppose it could also mean out of the midst of the apostasy / mystery of lawlessness.

I do not, however, see that the restrainer is the lawless one. The text says there is a restrainer UNTIL something comes "out of the midst", and THEN the lawless one is revealed. Therefore it looks to me like the restrainer is restraining the revealing of the lawless one.

The restrainer appears from the immediate context to be holding back the mystery of lawlessness, until he or someone/something comes to be out if the midst. "Comes to be" can be taken to mean "originates out of the midst", OR if I am not mistaken it can serve as a copula joining "he" with out of the midst. This would mean not that it comes from out of the midst, but that it enters a condition of existence out (side) of the midst.

The word genetai is a form (conjugation) of the same word translated "became" in John 1:14. Thus he/it "becomes" or "comes to exist". The STATE which he will "be" is "out of the midst". Therefore, until I see more conclusive information on the phrase ek mesou genetai, showing that it indicates "ek mesou" is the SOURCE from which he "comes to be", I have to default to the translators who took ek mesou to mean the condition into which he comes to be.

Esaias · #32 01-25-2015, 01:10 AM

How does this help us proclaim the gospel to the lost? I mean in a practical way?

Michael The Disciple · #33 01-25-2015, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

We were taught this refers to the man of sin when actually it refers to the REVELATION OF JESUS. QUOTE: MICHAEL THE DISCIPLE

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Michael, look at the bold print please bro.

Sean please read my posts.

Originalist · #34 01-25-2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not according to the context of verse 3.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I think verse 5 can be referring to the Anti-Christ and MTD still be correct in his assertion that the restrainer is the Anti-Christ himself. The anti-Christ must be revealed before he can be taken out of the way, paving the way for Christ to return. Either way, the context of the chapter is Paul reminding deceived Christians that Christ can't return until the anti-Christ first comes on the scene. I see nothing that indicates something is restraining the anti-Christ from appearing, except maybe the falling away. .

Originalist · #35 01-25-2015, 07:41 AM

Here is one possible alternative.....

Originalist · #36 01-25-2015, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

My interlinear (Berry's) reads "monon ho katechon arti heos ek mesou genetai". Berry translates it as "only (there is) he who restrains at present until out of (the) midst he be (gone)".

Seems the Greek is saying "one who (or "one that") restrains currently until out from the midst he comes to be". I am not sure what genetai refers to: is it one who restrains? Or is it the one to be revealed (next verse, the lawless one)?

In other words, is Paul saying tat which restrains will come to be out from the midst? Or is he saying the restrainer does so until the lawless one is come out of the midst?

Seems the simplest reading is that there is something restraining the revealing of the lawless one until that lawless one comes out of the midst.

Another question is "out of the midst of what"? It could be the phrase means out of the midst as though in between two things (thus the translation "out of the way"), although I suppose it could also mean out of the midst of the apostasy / mystery of lawlessness.

I do not, however, see that the restrainer is the lawless one. The text says there is a restrainer UNTIL something comes "out of the midst", and THEN the lawless one is revealed. Therefore it looks to me like the restrainer is restraining the revealing of the lawless one.

The restrainer appears from the immediate context to be holding back the mystery of lawlessness, until he or someone/something comes to be out if the midst. "Comes to be" can be taken to mean "originates out of the midst", OR if I am not mistaken it can serve as a copula joining "he" with out of the midst. This would mean not that it comes from out of the midst, but that it enters a condition of existence out (side) of the midst.

The word genetai is a form (conjugation) of the same word translated "became" in John 1:14. Thus he/it "becomes" or "comes to exist". The STATE which he will "be" is "out of the midst". Therefore, until I see more conclusive information on the phrase ek mesou genetai, showing that it indicates "ek mesou" is the SOURCE from which he "comes to be", I have to default to the translators who took ek mesou to mean the condition into which he comes to be.

"out of the midst" Some say that Paul is saying that the anti-Christ will be "taken out of the midst" (a better translation they say than "taken out of the way), the midst of the "falling away" which Paul also says must happen before Christ can return. Thus this interpretation would mean that Paul was saying what is preventing the anti-Christ from being revealed is that the great falling away (apostasy) must happen and then, from the midst of that apostate system, the anti-Christ is "revealed from the midst" of it. This kind of echoes what you said. The restrainer then would be the fact that the apostasy has not occurred. See the video I posted this morning.

mfblume · #37 01-25-2015, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

We were taught this refers to the man of sin when actually it refers to the REVELATION OF JESUS. QUOTE: MICHAEL THE DISCIPLE

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Michael, look at the bold print please bro.

Sean that is exactly correct and follows grammatical demands for reading. Nothing between verses three and six changes the "he" to JESUS. Especially with verse 8 as you pointed out that mentions the wicked being revealed.

Evang.Benincasa · #38 01-25-2015, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Here is one possible alternative.....

Well folks there goes somebody reading Greek again, and comparing the New testament with the Old. Originalist good job.

mfblume · #39 01-25-2015, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Here is one possible alternative.....

That still makes the he who is to be revealed to be the man of sin, not JESUS, in verse 6.

mfblume · #40 01-25-2015, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who (MAN OF SIN) opposeth and exalteth himself (MAN OF SIN) above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he (MAN OF SIN) as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he (MAN OF SIN) is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he (MAN OF SIN) might be revealed in his time.

Nothing between verses 3 and 7 changes the HE from the man of sin to Jesus by the time we get to verse 7. What is there between 3 and 7 that changes the HE to Jesus?

When in mentioned verse 7, I should have said 6. Sorry for the confusion.