Lee Stoneking Addresses UN

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Not what Jesus, or Paul, or John in Revelations said. All said deeds. Perhaps you should review.

Not sure what you said here. Did you say they all promoted GOOD DEEDS TO SAVE US?

Eph 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 11:6 KJV And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Deeds FOLLOW salvation, but we are not SAVED BY GOOD DEEDS.

I think you need to review the bible.

Rom 4:4-6 KJV Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

never never never are works used to merit us salvation. WITHOUT WORKS, before we have a chance to DO ONE SINGLE GOOD WORK, we are saved entirely by Christ's work on the cross.

Do you not agree?

[shazeep]

A good deed covers many sins, Mr Blume; the one will be reflected in the other.

Originally Posted by mfblume

You never seemed to know the real message of the bible, nor do you now. For, if you knew, you would realize it's not our deeds but it's His work on the cross. And without His work on the cross accomplished in our lives, we are nothing and we are lost in our sins. Muslims deny the work of God that occurs through the death and resurrection. Show me one statement in Koran that says we must have the work of the cross applied to our lives for salvation.

God washes our sins, not us. We buried all hopes of making ourselves righteous when we were baptized in Jesus' name. Your presenting a view that's so twisted you cannot even see what we are saying and attribute it to the exact opposite of our point.

We are not better than anyone. It has nothing to do with one person better. It has to do with whether or not GOD did the work after we accepted what had to be done BY HIM. Islam is a works-based religion. Not grace of God at all.

Mr Blume, you have grown comfortable with your definitions, the American ones, when God has a better idea. The Qur'an states perfectly well exactly what you are saying--transcendently, when one considers how accepting it is of Christianity, at least when actually practiced. You condemn billions on a technicality.

You make yourself righteous--apparently unawares--when you consider yourself qualified to condemn anyone else; which i note Scripture goes to great lengths to forgive. But you disregard all of those passages, and relentlessly hammer on your narrow, exclusionary definitions, thinking this the meaning of "narrow path," and ignoring the wide trail of destruction in your wake. I don't mean you personally of course, but anyone justified in their own eyes, me included.

It would be funny to me, if it weren't so sad, and so applicable to the whole world, being as how we are undeniably big brother at the moment--all the blustering preachers, silk suits for sackcloth, condemning those they are feeding off of...thankfully i get around enough that i see this is not representative, but only publicized the most.

So by all means continue in your pearl of great price, and instruct me in how i have not understood the least of Scripture. Personally, i know for a fact that i have only the most basic idea of what following Christ means; and i know that i am swimming in sin.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks

I also believe that based on the condition of Christianity at the time of development of the Quran and the condition of the chirch today that the church turned away from what they were supposed to do and how they were supposed to conduct themselves and God picked the most backwards and ignorant group of people possible to clarify it.

Not true. Jesus knew the end from the beginning. When He said His church would be built on the rock and nothing would bring it down, He knew what He was talking about clear up to the end of time.

He knew false prophets would come in, too.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not true. Jesus knew the end from the beginning. When He said His church would be built on the rock and nothing would bring it down, He knew what He was talking about clear up to the end of time.

He knew false prophets would come in, too.

It seems, from all of his collective posts, he equates the Roman Catholic Church on par with the Apostles Doctrine, which it isn't. He can't seem to let that go.

[shazeep]

"I also believe that based on the condition of Christianity at the time of development of the Quran and the condition of the chirch today that the church turned away from what they were supposed to do and how they were supposed to conduct themselves and God picked the most backwards and ignorant group of people possible to clarify it."

as He always does. Very nice.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It seems, from all of his collective posts, he equates the Roman Catholic Church on par with the Apostles Doctrine, which it isn't. He can't seem to let that go.

this is a good point. It is undeniable that we descend from the RCC, like it or not. I see a primary difference is that Muslims live in Islam, while Christians open a box a couple times a week and peer inside, for a "guided" tour.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not sure what you said here. Did you say they all promoted GOOD DEEDS TO SAVE US?

Eph 2:8-9 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 11:6 KJV And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Deeds FOLLOW salvation, but we are not SAVED BY GOOD DEEDS.

I think you need to review the bible.

Rom 4:4-6 KJV Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

never never never are works used to merit us salvation. WITHOUT WORKS, before we have a chance to DO ONE SINGLE GOOD WORK, we are saved entirely by Christ's work on the cross.

Do you not agree?

2 Cor 5:10 and certainly the description in Rev of the judgement would at least seem to imply that no matter what you believed or how you looked or what Jesus did, you still are judged by deeds. How many more verses say this? Many.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Mr Blume, you have grown comfortable with your definitions, the American ones, when God has a better idea. The Qur'an states perfectly well exactly what you are saying--transcendently, when one considers how accepting it is of Christianity, at least when actually practiced. You condemn billions on a technicality.

A technicality? This is what the teachings of no one coming to God except through Christ have become to you? A technicality?

Your version of all of this is that we cannot take the Word of God in the Bible for what it says. When Jesus says no man gets to God in any way, shape or form, whatsoever, unless He come through HIM, JESUS, you cannot accept that and have to say, "Well, we really do not know what He meant. But He certainly did not mean Jesus is the ONLY way to God, excluding all others."

For some reason, you took offence to truth due to some inept believers, and you associated everything to do with ONLY THROUGH JESUS to be with people who interpret the bible wrong, because you KNEW such people who said these things were BAD SPIRITED. You KNEW.

You cannot lay your finger on anything in the Koran that says JESUS IS LORD and is the ONLY WAY to God through His death and resurrection. So you say what is found in th Koran is essentially the same thing, just not using those words.

Please show us! Show us where the Koran says Jesus' work on the cross is the only way to God.

You make yourself righteous--apparently unawares--when you consider yourself qualified to condemn anyone else, Mr Blume;

Mr. Shazeep, You do not see the difference between relating what GOD JUDGED in His word with making the judgment and exalting oneself up as God. I am not qualified to condemn anyone. But when the bible says a person is condemned who does not believe Jesus is the only way, and I relate that information, GOD condemned them. Not me. Show me ONE statement I made that God did not teach us to believe in the Bible.

You speak in generalities and are unable to deal with what we actually say and back it up with scripture.

which i note Scripture goes to great lengths to forgive. But you disregard all of those passages, and relentlessly hammer on your narrow, exclusionary definitions, thinking this the meaning of "narrow path," and ignoring the wide trail of destruction in your wake. I don't mean you personally of course, but anyone justified in their own eyes, me included.

No one can be justified in my their eyes as being personally better than anyone else. I keep repeating that, but you ignore those parts of my statements. We cannot judge ourselves, let alone judge someone else! I cannot DARE to make a call on someone since only God can do that. But GOD did do that in many statements the Bible says.

Islam is salvation by good works. Walks admitted it by implication when he stated all the teachers of the bible, and even Jesus (Whom he does not equate with God in the flesh), taught good deeds. My question was about good deeds saving us. Walks said they do. The BIBLE says anyone who teaches that is lost.

Christianity teaches our good deeds and self-righteousness are so far from what we need that any hopes of making ourselves good is BURIED, for we were worth nothing more than dying and being buried as far as fitting ourselves to be saved through good deeds. John said the tree must be cut down at the very roots, and not this trimming of self-righteousness achieved through good deeds.

The ironic thing is that teaching we are saved by good deeds is what is self-righteous! You are made RIGHTEOUS as a result of SELF effort! So you are ACTUALLY TEACHING SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS when you say Christ's work on the cross IS NOT what saves us, but OUR GOOD DEEDS as Walks said.

It would be funny to me, if it weren't so sad, and so applicable to the whole world, being as how we are undeniably big brother at the moment--all the blustering preachers, silk suits for sackcloth, condemning those they are feeding off of...thankfully i get around enough that i see this is not representative, but only publicized the most.

Notice you cannot get in to scripture for your arguments? You are only touting a CONCEPT you adhere to and allege is in the Bible as commonly as it is in the Koran. Meanwhile you cannot show the passages and explain the ones I presented, and can only say THE CONCEPT is somehow hidden and obscured, but still there, in the Koran. No evidence, though!

So by all means continue in your pearl of great price,

I will continue in JESUS, who is the pearl!

and instruct me in how i have not understood the least of Scripture. Personally, i know for a fact that i have only the most basic idea of what following Christ means; and i know that i am swimming in sin.

You could never have truly known the truth, for your concept of self-righteousness is applied to those who look to the work of the Lord on the cross for our salvation and not their own good deeds, while you believe YOUR GOOD DEEDS save you as Walks stated saves him.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

never never never are works used to merit us salvation. WITHOUT WORKS, before we have a chance to DO ONE SINGLE GOOD WORK, we are saved entirely by Christ's work on the cross.

Do you not agree?

I sure don't, if it means you are qualified to arbitrate another's walk. We are told, many times, that without love all the jazz you are regurgitating is pointless. Love can only be manifest in works. So, you take this passage, which does have meaning, and make it of no effect also.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

2 Cor 5:10 and certainly the description in Rev of the judgement would at least seem to imply that no matter what you believed or how you looked or what Jesus did, you still are judged by deeds. How many more verses say this? Many.

Again, you need to learn more. Good deeds DO JUDGE us, BUT DO NOT SAVE US. When good deeds come AFTER the efforts of God, not us, that saves us, we are to be judged by them. You seem to know very little about the fact hat salvation is not of good deeds, but God's deeds, lest anyone should boast.

1Co 1:28-31 KJV And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: (29) That no flesh should glory in his presence. (30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Our holiness or sanctification is not achieved by GOOD DEEDS. It is Christ who is personally OUR righteousness and holiness. God made Christ to be these things for us. Why? So we could not glory or boast in ourselves and what good we have done. God doing the work THAT SAVES US makes GOD the one who alone can boast. The glory of what originated the good that we have can only go to God. Islam says, NO. You save YOURSELF by good works. The more you speak the more you prove my point.

We're in Christ by the works OF GOD, not our own good deeds.

So you are really proving my point when you challenge me as to what saves us, when you say OUR GOOD DEEDS save us. This is so far from TRUE Christianity, that I cannot describe it. YES, there are MANY multitudes of Christians who are self-righteous, because they think their good deeds save them. But they are only proposing the same thing YOU ARE in saying we are saved by good deeds. So, all the accusations of self-righteousness can only fly back onto yourself.

YOU seem to think self-righteousness is a bad attitude, when in reality it is gaining salvation through works of SELF.

I am not made righteous by my ability to obey Christ perfectly.

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Christ's obedience made me righteous. You seem to think YOUR good deeds make you righteous, and in reality that is SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. Did you not know that righteousness achieved through the deeds of SELF is self-righteousness?