Lee Stoneking Addresses UN

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i doubt it, as this would be the equivalent of throwing the first stone, along with anyone who feels qualified to point a finger at "the lost." I read in the Qur'an that anyone who adheres to their monotheistic belief is a brother. But i have forgotten those days, when i too felt that i had no sin because i was following all the procedures described to me.

I was told by a Muslim, they had a word for us, that we can never be saved because we believe Jesus is God...even if we stopped believing Jesus is God.

It was contradictory though because she claimed she was a Christian before "reverting"....so when I confronted her about whether or not she believed Jesus was God she said no...that her Pastor never taught on the topic. She went to a Baptist church

Stuff like that is the norm I encounter from Muslims, a lot of contradictions.

No Muslim I have encountered has ever said anyone BUT a Muslim is saved

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

How do you know? Because, in your discussions with them, they do not use the same words that you do, in the correct order?

I know because they SAID "Jesus was NOT crucified".

I KNOW because they teach God replaced Jesus on the cross with someone else and made it LOOK like Jesus was crucfied, according to Muslims

I know because Muslims say Jesus is NOT the Son of God. You don't really know what you are talking about do you?

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:
...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shazeep

A good deed covers many sins, Mr Blume; the one will be reflected in the other.

The bible is clear, it's not by our own good works that we can be saved. That does not mean we should not have good works, but the basis of our relationship with God is faith

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

2 Cor 5:10 and certainly the description in Rev of the judgement would at least seem to imply that no matter what you believed or how you looked or what Jesus did, you still are judged by deeds. How many more verses say this? Many.

There are two classes of people in Revelation. those that partake in the first resurrection and everyone else who are judged by their works

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat down on them, and authority to judge was granted to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and did not receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over this person the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.


The Second class
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and a place was not found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and each one was judged according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[Praxeas]

The basis of our relationship with God is faith. It can never be works because ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and there is none that is perfect

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The sheep from the goats is the ONLY issue that, according to Jesus, saved these people

You're taking this parable out of context. Jesus said MANY things. This parable was not an instruction of the only thing needed to be saved.

The purpose of these parables was to show the last day how some would be saved and some would be not. These were all parables

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I was told by a Muslim, they had a word for us, that we can never be saved because we believe Jesus is God...even if we stopped believing Jesus is God.

It was contradictory though because she claimed she was a Christian before "reverting"....so when I confronted her about whether or not she believed Jesus was God she said no...that her Pastor never taught on the topic. She went to a Baptist church

Stuff like that is the norm I encounter from Muslims, a lot of contradictions.

No Muslim I have encountered has ever said anyone BUT a Muslim is saved

Good post, Prax! Neither Walks or Shaz has yet to explain this:

"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Quran 48:29)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I quote Jesus, and you quote letters from someone who never actually experienced His teaching. Nice.

.

Actually, you quoted Jesus out of context

Second of all, you already validated Paul's teaching as a part of this discussion, so the above is purely a fallacy

Third, Paul was called by Jesus
Act 26:14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Act 26:15 So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.
Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Received by the Apostles
Act 15:2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

and approved by Peter as being an author of scriptures
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Further Paul says he spent 15 days with Peter. He learned from Peter as well as Barnabas who was with the Apostles for a long time before joining Paul

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

That's funny. Your "in context" is in direct contradiction to what it says it is referring to, which is "all the nations". I think it is referring to exactly what I said it is referring to - judgment of all mankind. Jesus had plenty to say about the upcoming judgment of Israel. Just not here.

What is it about you people that you pretend that there is always some "context" that makes words directly quoted from your own book mean something other than what it actually says?

Nobody is denying people will be separated. That is beside the point and why you keep resorting to it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I already told you that this means that you are to do exactly what Jesus did and do exactly what Jesus said to do, pray exactly as Jesus prayed and pray to exactly who Jesus taught you to pray to. In this, you acknowledge Jesus. This is actually the third time I have said this.

You are like the sorrowful man who realizes you can't sell everything and follow Him. This must be why you keep demanding something else.

No where does it say do exactly anything.

And if so, what about you? Jesus wore sandals, do you? Jesus prayed "Our Father"....do you?

Jesus called Himself the Son, do you?

He called God (Allah), "Father"..do you?

Jesus died on a cross, do you?

Jesus drank wine, do you?

In fact Jesus COULD not mean do everything exactly as he did. Much of the Law was specifically for Israel as part of the covenant, but Jesus specifically inaugurated a New Covenant and left much of the details up to His Apostles