End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I have no problem explaining any scripture concerning women in ministry....however it is a waste of time to those who believe different....

*There is no "believing different" - it could not possibly be clearer in God's Word. The "waste of time" is dealing with those who stubbornly plod along ignoring the exegetical facts, flow of the texts, syntax, context - & just straightforward reading of God's Word.

*Respectfully (& I mean that sincerely), it is rebellion & open defiance to crystal-clear God-Breathed Scripture...under the guise of "agreeing to disagree."

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

a very good book on this subject was written by Pauline Tolstad many years ago. I do not know if it is still in print...

*The best book I've ever read on this topic is called the.....B-I-B-L-E .

*Next, the most in-depth exegetical work in existence today on this topic (& which has *never* been offered any real rebuttal) is found here: http://www.amazon.com/Women-Church-A.../dp/080102904X

*The next best books (& a very-very close tie with the above book) are found here:

http://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Fe.../dp/1433532611

http://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Fe.../dp/1581347340

http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Bib.../dp/1433537125

**Here is a link to the innumerable exegetical articles on this topic from the Council of Biblical Manhood & Womanhood: http://cbmw.org/journal/

*In all seriousness, if *ANYONE* can read these books/articles & still believe in "women preachers/teachers" in the church...they are simply being 100% dishonest (of course, we've already seen much of that for many years in dealing with this topic).

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I am teaching a seminar next weekend on ladies in ministry.

*I honestly feel so sad for whoever is allowing you to do this. I mean this respectfully since you're my elder (age wise), but you have been shown your outright gross errors & misinformation for many years now...yet you just continue to plod along like it's not there - still pilfering the same outright misinformation?? Mind-boggling.

*One of about 50 examples I could post: You continue to state that the nouns translated "man" (ἀνδρός) & "woman" (γυναικὶ) in I Timothy 2.12 are "most often translated as 'husband' and 'wife'" (your words).

*Yet I have demonstrated to you over & over & over & over & over & over that this is 100% factually false. In fact, the polar opposite is true. The NASB (often called "The Scholars Bible") translates the Greek noun for "woman" used in I Tim. 2.12 as "wife" 84 times - but in every instance there are possessive markings, the article, or other syntactical markings (usually verbs) clearly denoting the marriage life (e.g., Mark 10.4 - I go into this in more detail below). In contrast, this same Greek noun is translated as merely "woman" in the NASB 130 times!

*The Greek noun translated "man" in I Tim. 2.12 is rendered as "husband" in the NASB 52 times. This same noun is translated simply as "man" (as it is in I Tim. 2.12) 158 times!

*And, for these nouns to be translated as "husband" or "wife," there have to be either (i) possessive markings such as either possessive pronouns or articular nouns, or (ii) other grammatical identifiers that the marriage life is in view (e.g., Mark 10.4 - εἰ ἔξεστιν ἀνδρὶ γυναῖκα ἀπολῦσαι; if it is lawful for a man [husband] to divorce a woman [his wife]).

*As Dr. Daniel Wallace told me personally (shall I repost the email here for everyone to see?): "none of this is going on in I Tim. 2" - which is precisely the reason that virtually NO reputable translations adopt the renderings of "husband" nor "wife" in I Tim. 2.12 (don't even try Young's - it won't fare well for you when I quote some of his other mistranslations ).

*Again, all of this has been pointed out to you many-many-many-many-many times...yet you continue to proffer the same misinformation?? Honestly mind-boggling to many of us (trust me, they have told me so personally). I honestly feel sad for those unsuspecting folks whom you're "teaching a seminar" to on this topic...but will always be here to point out the mistakes .

*Funny thing is, I also recently taught on the topic of "women in the ministry" & why they are explicitly forbidden from the same at an extremely well-known church - at the pastors request. I deal with many of your (& other "books" on the issue) erroneous assertions & misinformation such as above.

[Esaias]

Is there any scripture which identifies, teaches, or supports women in leadership over men in the church of God?

Because the only scriptures I can think of that speak directly to the topic seem to say the exact opposite.

This does not mean women do not have a role in the church. They do, a very important role, which cannot be fulfilled by men in any proper sense. But leading the church, teaching men, etc is not it.

This has nothing to do with "ability", by the way, but everything to do with God's order.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is there any scripture which identifies, teaches, or supports women in leadership over men in the church of God?

Because the only scriptures I can think of that speak directly to the topic seem to say the exact opposite.

This does not mean women do not have a role in the church. They do, a very important role, which cannot be fulfilled by men in any proper sense. But leading the church, teaching men, etc is not it.

This has nothing to do with "ability", by the way, but everything to do with God's order.

This is an elder sister's ministry

Titus 2:3-5

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

[Sister Alvear]

I could post lots of scriptures and lots of book titles and especially lots of greek but it is just a waste of my time and the time of others....Most of us have decided how we feel about this subject and other subjects...It s just like pre trib...post trib....and whatever trib....we all feel we have scripture to back up what we believe....


I have done what God has called me to do and expect to hear HIM say, Well done at the end of the journey....If I have offended anyone I am sorry but in no way would I ever say God did not call me to be a missionary. I hope at the ending of the day I can say I gave it my best.....

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I could post lots of scriptures and lots of book titles and especially lots of greek but it is just a waste of my time and the time of others....Most of us have decided how we feel about this subject and other subjects...It s just like pre trib...post trib....and whatever trib....we all feel we have scripture to back up what we believe....


I have done what God has called me to do and expect to hear HIM say, Well done at the end of the journey....If I have offended anyone I am sorry but in no way would I ever say God did not call me to be a missionary. I hope at the ending of the day I can say I gave it my best.....

Do you feel women should pastor or hold leadership positions in the church?

I may can see scripturally where ladies speak a message or a sermon, but I am not even sure of that based on scripture alone. I am not against ladies advancing, but I just get my beliefs from the few scriptures written by Paul which are plan enough there isn't any need to do greek research. I promise I mean to be none offensive. I just wonder how you feel about a lady positional leaders in authority over men.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I could post lots of scriptures and lots of book titles and especially lots of greek but it is just a waste of my time and the time of others.

*Yes M'aam - We have seen your (mis)handling of the "lots of Greek" texts, as well as "proof-texts"...& it is 100% demonstrably erroneous & factually untrue.

*On this one thing we agree...it is an absolute "waste of time" to point out your errors - your mind is (sadly) thoroughly made up on the issue. In all sincerity it is grievious that you're willfully putting out so much outright false information. Do you not fear God? My conscience would never allow me to willfully continue to put out so much false data.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I could post lots of scriptures and lots of book titles and especially lots of greek but it is just a waste of my time and the time of others....Most of us have decided how we feel about this subject and other subjects...It s just like pre trib...post trib....and whatever trib....we all feel we have scripture to back up what we believe....


I have done what God has called me to do and expect to hear HIM say, Well done at the end of the journey....If I have offended anyone I am sorry but in no way would I ever say God did not call me to be a missionary. I hope at the ending of the day I can say I gave it my best.....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Please, this has nothing to do with emotion but the word is clear there are no female leadership over adult males. The Bible shows that immature and female leadership as a curse.


Isaiah 3:4

And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.


Isaiah 3:12

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and WOMEN RULE OVER THEM. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Women and children are shown in this verses to show Israel how upside down she was becoming. Hence in the Judean/Israeli mindset children and women taking leadership roles wasn't a good thing.

[KeptByTheWord]

Being as I started this post in the beginning... while it has been such a hotbed of emotion... there is one thing that has been demonstrated ... there is no scripture in the NT that would allow women to have a leadership position or role that involves ruling over men.

However, there is room for women in ministering... by sharing the gospel, and being a missionary etc., without overstepping the boundaries and crossing into the role of headship/leadership.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Being as I started this post in the beginning... while it has been such a hotbed of emotion... there is one thing that has been demonstrated ... there is no scripture in the NT that would allow women to have a leadership position or role that involves ruling over men.

However, there is room for women in ministering... by sharing the gospel, and being a missionary etc., without overstepping the boundaries and crossing into the role of headship/leadership.

And that is a good word, coming from a sister in the Lord, too.