In all instances the baptize in Jesus Name. In some instances that and infilling of the Holy Ghost is vital.
In some instances, those things are far less important than the number of people walking thru the door.
I do know the players.. and I know a few who walk in their circles even better. I have good friends... well they were good friends...evidently I started smelling bad or something... who I started ministry with, who were committed to the Apostolic message... that now are really supercool and when you go to their church and make the mistake of getting close to acting Pentecostal, you are ushered off to a side room. don't want to freak the natives out etc.
Its a sad sad thing when I see guys that I worked alters with. Guys whos anointing I once knew. Guys that I know, they know the power of God active in their lives. and now?
more Baptist than Pentecostal. more Methodist than Holiness. More Business Decision than God decision.
More likely to ask a person if they have made a "decision for Christ" than they are to ask them have they received the Holy Ghost since they repented.
It breaks my heart. I have never been a hard liner. im not looking for lockstep purity in understanding, doctrine, or methodology. But man alive some guys I have spent time with. serious time with. working alters and preaching and teaching.... well... I didn't change.
I think it is possible that some of the changes you attribute to just a desire for more people are heart felt changes in belief. I for one changed over time to appreciate the instructions about order in the church and the role of tongues that is outlined in I Corinthians 14.
In regards to "shouting" that is nothing more than Pentecostal culture. Nowhere in the New Testament are there instances of people doing the helicopter, jerking, twitching ,etc. Pentecostals have taken the scripture about people thinking they were drunk on the day of Pentecost and have run with it resulting in all of the wild physical motions some Pentecostals believe are manifestations of annointing or the presence of God.
While I believe in freedom of worship and emotion that does not do away with the fact that much of how that emotion is expressed in old time Pentecost is Pentecostal culture and not biblical.
One observation I have about being around both the hyper emotional type churches with people screaming yelling and flinging themselves about and churches that are more focused on the word is that both have the same percentage of human failures, people falling into sin ,etc. The jumping ,twitching, arm waving, and running does not make one any more spiritual or closer to God or more filled with the Holy Spirit.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Let's be honest and state that the first split in Texas was because of all the Mexicans from the south. And they said they would split again if they had it...
Let's be honest and state that the first split in Texas was because of all the Mexicans from the south. And they said they would split again if they had it...
I lived in Texas for 16 years and know it pretty well and NEVER heard anything about Mexicans as a reason for the split in the district.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I think it is possible that some of the changes you attribute to just a desire for more people are heart felt changes in belief. I for one changed over time to appreciate the instructions about order in the church and the role of tongues that is outlined in I Corinthians 14.
In regards to "shouting" that is nothing more than Pentecostal culture. Nowhere in the New Testament are there instances of people doing the helicopter, jerking, twitching ,etc. Pentecostals have taken the scripture about people thinking they were drunk on the day of Pentecost and have run with it resulting in all of the wild physical motions some Pentecostals believe are manifestations of annointing or the presence of God.
While I believe in freedom of worship and emotion that does not do away with the fact that much of how that emotion is expressed in old time Pentecost is Pentecostal culture and not biblical.
One observation I have about being around both the hyper emotional type churches with people screaming yelling and flinging themselves about and churches that are more focused on the word is that both have the same percentage of human failures, people falling into sin ,etc. The jumping ,twitching, arm waving, and running does not make one any more spiritual or closer to God or more filled with the Holy Spirit.
I feel ya bro. like I said im not looking for perfect agreement on everything. People grow. people change.
I do find it interesting how our one prejudges come into play. I said "getting close to acting Pentecostal". you jumped to the helicopter.
I was talking about raising hands and speaking in tongues. NOT shouting. NOT running the backs of the pews. Just normal not-Baptist type worship.
I know guys who not only don't want people talking tongues but would really rather nobody did it. In fact they make sure it doesn't happen in the church for fear it will disturb members.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Let's be honest and state that the first split in Texas was because of all the Mexicans from the south. And they said they would split again if they had it...
That is a lie Houston. I personally know one of the main drivers of this. One who worked on the Cali split. That worked on the South Texas split and on this one.
It is an absolute lie to suggest such a thing. The guy in question has one of the most diverse churches in the country. Not just in the UPCI, but in all Christian denominations
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
One of the main players behind the splitting of the South Texas district had an actual real Mexican as his Pastoral assistant, Music director and at one point principle of his preschool.
By "actual real" I mean he was born in Mexico, and was a legal resident for more than 15 years while he was all the above in this mans church. He became a U. S. Citizen after having worked in the UPCI with one of the main "splitters" for more than 15 years.
Houston, such a statement is vastly wrong and utterly false. These men never did what they did because of some attitude toward "Mexicans".
I could speak at great length about the subject both from the South Texas AND from the Texas district AND from the perspective of the new North Texas district.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
That is a lie Houston. I personally know one of the main drivers of this. One who worked on the Cali split. That worked on the South Texas split and on this one.
It is an absolute lie to suggest such a thing. The guy in question has one of the most diverse churches in the country. Not just in the UPCI, but in all Christian denominations
Ferd is 100% correct here. I lived in Texas for 16 years and have multiple relatives who are or have been Texas UPC pastors.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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