Your tithes were already paid.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

The apostle Paul states in 2 Corinthians 9:7, "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

The Apostle Paul never mentions a specific amount that must be given to the church. In addition, the Apostle Paul never states that 10% must be given, but rather "give what you have decided in your heart to give.."

If you've decided to give 10% of your income to the church, fine. There is no biblical commandment in the New Testament where one must give 10% of their income.

From what I recall, Ananias and Sapphira kept a part of the proceeds from the sale, and they both died because of their actions. Ananias and Sapphira didn't die because their lack of tithing; instead, they died due to withholding part of their FREEWILL offering.

actually they died because they said they gave all and only gave part.... They lied.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by mfblume

actually they died because they said they gave all and only gave part.... They lied.

Well if you know the story, you'll understand when I said they kept a part of the proceeds. Of course they lied, they kept part of the proceeds. What you must also understand that this wasn't a tithe. Their offering was a freewill offering. There was no tithing under the new dispensation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Well if you know the story, you'll understand when I said they kept a part of the proceeds. Of course they lied, they kept part of the proceeds. What you must also understand that this wasn't a tithe. Their offering was a freewill offering. There was no tithing under the new dispensation.

But the sin was lying, not holding back. Peter said they could have held back if they only said so, but they lied.

Anyway. anything, even tithes, can be given from a willing heart without compulsion. That's my point. And God will bless it. I believe in tithing, but I do not preach compulsion. In fact, I don't even know who actually tithes in our church and who doesn't and I make no qualms about it. Some may be giving more or less. Matters not to me. I have not taught it and I won't. I just teach giving. And I do not say they have a curse if they don't, because Gal 3 says the cross removed the curse of the law, not tithing. I have made that statement in our meetings.

I certainly don't think one has to tithe and there is no other way to give. Give what you will without grudging and do it in faith, cheerfully.

So, when people slam tithing you affect me, and I am not even compelling anyone to tithe nor am I saying it brings a curse if we don't.

But we also have folks here who do not think 1 Cor 9 teaches the minister should live from the offerings of the church, and THAT is false doctrine., if you want to talk about false doctrine.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But the sin was lying, not holding back. Peter said they could have held back if they only said so, but they lied.

Anyway. anything, even tithes, can be given from a willing heart without compulsion. That's my point. And God will bless it. I believe in tithing, but I do not preach compulsion. In fact, I don't even know who actually tithes in our church and who doesn't and I make no qualms about it. Some may be giving more or less. Matters not to me. I have not taught it and I won't. I just teach giving. And I do not say they have a curse if they don't, because Gal 3 says the cross removed the curse of the law, not tithing. I have made that statement in our meetings.

I certainly don't think one has to tithe and there is no other way to give. Give what you will without grudging and do it in faith, cheerfully.

So, when people slam tithing you affect me, and I am not even compelling anyone to tithe nor am I saying it brings a curse if we don't.

But we also have folks here who do not think 1 Cor 9 teaches the minister should live from the offerings of the church, and THAT is false doctrine., if you want to talk about false doctrine.

Though I don't think "tithing" is not the proper term to use, please understand nobody is slamming someone giving 10% of their income to the work of God. If someone does that now, then why stop? I certainly am not encouraging people to give less. I'm only questioning the validity of a common teaching.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Though I don't think "tithing" is not the proper term to use, please understand nobody is slamming someone giving 10% of their income to the work of God. If someone does that now, then why stop? I certainly am not encouraging people to give less. I'm only questioning the validity of a common teaching.

That is not coming through on this thread.

[Nitehawk013]

Maybe Bro. Blume and Benincasa legitimately are foreign to the theological extortion going on every Sunday in thousands of Apostolic churches. Perhaps they don't preach tithe as a heaven or hell issue, condemning those who do not pay up to a devil's hell. If that is the case, then I suppose they would feel that the rest of us anti-tithers are "straining at a gnat".

For those of us who see and hear it all the time though, I assure you it is a big deal.

I pay my "tithe" to my church as my Pastor preaches and expects from everyone, especially the ministry. However, I know elderly women who have had to choose between food and tithing. I know of couples who struggle every single month to pay their bills, drive cars barely staying on the road, but are so afraid of burning in hell over the stupid tithe doctrine that they would never dream of taking care of their own family needs before giving the "tithe" that they cannot afford to pay. Many of them pay the "tithe", and then have to finance monthly bills via credit cards because they don't make enough money to even break even. I have heard of local Pastors who were asked, "if you knew so and so couldn't buy groceries, would you tell them to keep the tithe instead of giving it to you, or would you at least give it back to them after they were faithful to give it"? Their response was that they would not give it back to them. God ordained tithing and that tithe belonged to them. God will take care of the person who needs groceries.

Some of you think that men like Rudy, Originalist and I (and even Sean, though his candor make shim hard to defend sometimes) are making too much of this issue. Fighting against it too hard. Well, I would say that maybe you simply don't see it in your churches and so you don't recognize the pain this pathetic, foul doctrine causes to many within the church.

Some issues will always persist. Even without tithing, some people will make ignorant financial decisions and struggle. No argument here. However, there are some that are trying to be wise and responsible and cannot afford to see 10% of their income gone every paycheck. And those people have no voice. That is garbage! Too often their only choice is to either give or be repeatedly condemned and belittled form the pulpit until they leave church altogether.

Don't believe me? That is fine. As I said, maybe you don't see it in your church(es). I have seen it and heard it though. And I assure you, seeing people leave church over something as stupid as this horrific, weak and obsolete tithing nonsense is heartbreaking.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is not coming through on this thread.

Sure it is. It's just that when someone questions this teaching, the supporters of the doctrine come out of the woodwork and try to change the narrative to, "you don't believe in giving" or "you want the ministry to go without", etc.

Read my posts and you'll see I've endorsed both generous giving and supporting the ministry.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sure it is. It's just that when someone questions this teaching, the supporters of the doctrine come out of the woodwork and try to change the narrative to, "you don't believe in giving" or "you want the ministry to go without", etc.

Read my posts and you'll see I've endorsed both generous giving and supporting the ministry.

I never said anything about those who question the issue as though they don't believe in giving either. But you make that claim just like I did the way around. See what I mean? Look what comes through.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Maybe Bro. Blume and Benincasa legitimately are foreign to the theological extortion going on every Sunday in thousands of Apostolic churches. Perhaps they don't preach tithe as a heaven or hell issue, condemning those who do not pay up to a devil's hell. If that is the case, then I suppose they would feel that the rest of us anti-tithers are "straining at a gnat".

For those of us who see and hear it all the time though, I assure you it is a big deal.

I pay my "tithe" to my church as my Pastor preaches and expects from everyone, especially the ministry. However, I know elderly women who have had to choose between food and tithing. I know of couples who struggle every single month to pay their bills, drive cars barely staying on the road, but are so afraid of burning in hell over the stupid tithe doctrine that they would never dream of taking care of their own family needs before giving the "tithe" that they cannot afford to pay. Many of them pay the "tithe", and then have to finance monthly bills via credit cards because they don't make enough money to even break even. I have heard of local Pastors who were asked, "if you knew so and so couldn't buy groceries, would you tell them to keep the tithe instead of giving it to you, or would you at least give it back to them after they were faithful to give it"? Their response was that they would not give it back to them. God ordained tithing and that tithe belonged to them. God will take care of the person who needs groceries.

Some of you think that men like Rudy, Originalist and I (and even Sean, though his candor make shim hard to defend sometimes) are making too much of this issue. Fighting against it too hard. Well, I would say that maybe you simply don't see it in your churches and so you don't recognize the pain this pathetic, foul doctrine causes to many within the church.

Some issues will always persist. Even without tithing, some people will make ignorant financial decisions and struggle. No argument here. However, there are some that are trying to be wise and responsible and cannot afford to see 10% of their income gone every paycheck. And those people have no voice. That is garbage! Too often their only choice is to either give or be repeatedly condemned and belittled form the pulpit until they leave church altogether.

Don't believe me? That is fine. As I said, maybe you don't see it in your church(es). I have seen it and heard it though. And I assure you, seeing people leave church over something as stupid as this horrific, weak and obsolete tithing nonsense is heartbreaking.

I think some are pushing for 15% nowadays. You're robbing God in offerings.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sure it is. It's just that when someone questions this teaching, the supporters of the doctrine come out of the woodwork and try to change the narrative to, "you don't believe in giving" or "you want the ministry to go without", etc.

Read my posts and you'll see I've endorsed both generous giving and supporting the ministry.

Who did this???

I certainly don't recall doing it. Instead I was called several things by this "other side".