House church or excuse?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not what it rules out, it's what it points to. I thought you said it was a proxy issue. Where do you stand? Proxy or not?

I think there are some undefined terms floating around?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think there are some undefined terms floating around?

PROXY: the authority to represent someone else,

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

PROXY: the authority to represent someone else,

That's what I took it to mean?

Esaias what about slow cooking a roast?
Locking in all the juices, with all the vegetables thrown into the slow cooker?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yes, that is the whole meaning which goes with God being in their midsts in the wilderness tabernacle, right in the middle of the tribes. In His name means Jesus' authority is there in the middle of the three fold witness by proxy. Amen Brother Blume.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

PROXY: the authority to represent someone else,

It sounds as if by 'proxy' what is meant is 'he is not really there, he's just got his representatives there.'

When one uses the passage in question to say 'the Lord is present wherever two or three gather together in his name', and then another says 'no, that is not what it is talking about, it just means he is there by proxy', well... it sounds like one is saying the Lord is not present in his church except by proxy?

Now, nobody has supposed that the Lord is promising to be physically present. We know he is in heaven. But, is he not present, in reality, though not physically, but spiritually, by the Holy Ghost? Is that 'by proxy'?

He ratifies the decisions of the church because 'wherever two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst'. That was the reason he himself gave. The church acts as his proxy, as though he were physically present, because the church is his BODY. But the church acts as his 'proxy' only because the Lord is actually present in his church, by the Spirit! A group of people not having the Spirit, not actually having the Lord present, is not acting as his proxy. How could they? If they could, then we all better send our peace offering to Rome and do penance.

Obviously then, 'by proxy' means he places his authority in the church. But how does he do that? It is by the Holy Ghost. That is the only way Jesus Christ is 'in the midst', because the only way Jesus Christ can be ANYWHERE except where his physical body is - is by the Spirit.

And, the fact he says 'two or three' and not 'one' is proof he is establishing a minimum number. A minimum number for what? For conducting Kingdom business, which is the function of the church. If the Lord is present for conducting disciplinary matters BECAUSE 'where two or three are gathered together' etc, then it necessarily follows that two or three gathered together in his name is the miminum number of persons necessary to constitute an ekklesia (a Kingdom governmental unit).

The subject he was speaking of had to do with disciplining an erring brother. But he gave a REASON, a GROUND or foundation as to WHY 'whatever two of you agree as touching anything it shall be done for you'. That reason is 'wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst.' The two or three resulting in his being present is the REASON WHY disciplinary matters have divine sanction. They are not the purpose of the disciplinary matters, nor is the disciplinary matter a purpose of him being present. Rather, him being present secures authority to the disciplinary matter, and two or three gathered together in his name is what secures his being present.

Does that make sense?

If we say 'two or three gathered together has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Lord is present in a church meeting, nor does it have anything to do with the minimum number necessary to constitute an ekklesia', then we have to supply the answer to the question (which was, indeed, asked in this thread) of 'what is the minimum number necessary to constitute an ekklesia of Jesus Christ?'

[good samaritan]

Isn't God everywhere?

I believe it means he will be there in demonstration. In old Pentecostal jargon means the Holy Ghost will move. I understand that the reference to this passage is in context to church discipline, but is not limited to discipline. We can count on a demonstration when two are three are gathered in his name (authority of His name).

Two are three agreeing is a miraculous thing can't you tell that here on AFF

[mfblume]

Esaias, the chapter is about discipline and forgiveness. The whole point of doing anything in His name is standing IN HIS PLACE. We all know Jesus is in us all the time. Again, that makes it redundant to say the Lord is teaching about Him being actually there. The point is HE IS NOT ACTUALLY SPEAKING when saints speak in his name, which also applies to gathering in His name. You're missing the point -- the forest for the trees.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esaias, the chapter is about discipline and forgiveness. The whole point of doing anything in His name is standing IN HIS PLACE. We all know Jesus is in us all the time. Again, that makes it redundant to say the Lord is teaching about Him being actually there. The point is HE IS NOT ACTUALLY SPEAKING when saints speak in his name, which also applies to gathering in His name. You're missing the point -- the forest for the trees.

I am absolutely convinced I am not missing the point, and here's why: I understand the saints are speaking in his name, and he is not actually speaking (physically). I do believe I am failing to make my point clear. I think you do not understand what it is I am trying to say because I am unable to express it properly.

But think about this: When the saints speak 'as the Spirit gives them utterance', the Lord IS SPEAKING. Yes, he is HIMSELF speaking - through his saints. They are not merely speaking in his behalf, but the Holy Ghost is leading them and thus God speaks in Zion. 'And the LORD shall utter his voice from Zion' etc.

I will pray about how to find a better way to explain this. And if I do not find a better way, then we can simply agree that the Lord ratifies the decisions of his Spirit-led and Word-obedient ekklesia, and that the Lord is present with us, both when we gather together as the church and also with each of us no matter where we are.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Isn't God everywhere?

I believe it means he will be there in demonstration. In old Pentecostal jargon means the Holy Ghost will move. I understand that the reference to this passage is in context to church discipline, but is not limited to discipline. We can count on a demonstration when two are three are gathered in his name (authority of His name).

Two are three agreeing is a miraculous thing can't you tell that here on AFF

I believe you get the gist of what I have been trying to say.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's what I took it to mean?

Esaias what about slow cooking a roast?
Locking in all the juices, with all the vegetables thrown into the slow cooker?

ya, i think there's a reason you never heard of smoking a roast before