When a futurist says he will pay you back soon. .

[Sabby]

Jeff Arnold preached our camp meeting years ago. He said he had church issues with the IRS and hoped that the IRS agent was as his front door when the rapture happened. At least he wouldn't have to pay the IRS!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, i guess i would argue that Christ already has those crowns? But i do look to a future earthly fulfillment, also.

How can there be a future fulfillment ALSO, implying dual fulfillment? the only dual fulfilments in the bible are Old Testament examples, like Solomon being God's son, and Jesus the greater fulfillment and son of David, God's Son.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Jeff Arnold preached our camp meeting years ago. He said he had church issues with the IRS and hoped that the IRS agent was as his front door when the rapture happened. At least he wouldn't have to pay the IRS!

Having problems with the Sheriff of Nottingham? Depending on what the issue was he might miss the rapture and have to get through the tribulation.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How can there be a future fulfillment ALSO, implying dual fulfillment? the only dual fulfilments in the bible are Old Testament examples, like Solomon being God's son, and Jesus the greater fulfillment and son of David, God's Son.

my meaning is that i see that the world is ever so slowly, step by step, trudging toward Christ. We live in a much better world than our ancestors. The body of Christ is growing, i guess. Also, i doubt we experienced complete fulfillment, the wedding supper, etc, in 70 ad. We do not live in paradise, obviously.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

my meaning is that i see that the world is ever so slowly, step by step, trudging toward Christ. We live in a much better world than our ancestors. The body of Christ is growing, i guess. Also, i doubt we experienced complete fulfillment, the wedding supper, etc, in 70 ad. We do not live in paradise, obviously.

But who said the wedding supper ushers us into paradise? Certainly not Revelation.

Here's my current views. always subject to correction:

Matt 22 shows the wedding supper in the context of Jerusalem's impending doom due to rejecting Christ. People who were first bidden to the wedding refused to come. Jews reject Christ. Their city is doomed to be burned with fire, and the inviters are sent to the biways and highways to gather the others. So, the city is burned with fire and others come to the wedding who were not first invited. This is repeated in Revelation. Rev 18 has the city Jerusalem burned and the wedding carries on in Chapter 19.

[shazeep]

well, possible maybe, but that would assume a prepared bride at that point, which i doubt can even be argued. The bride is not yet prepared.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, possible maybe, but that would assume a prepared bride at that point, which i doubt can even be argued. The bride is not yet prepared.

Who said a prepared bride?

I used to agree, but no more.

Ephesians 5 says he wants a bride without spot or wrinkle. And the common idea has been we are being cleansed and ironed out after salvation occurs. But the actual context means that when Christ saved us by having given himself for us, we were AT THAT MOMENT without spot or wrinkle. We are saved spotless and without wrinkle. The work of the cross made us flawless as soon as we were saved. There's no gradual cleansing as though we're saved filthy dirty and begin a process of being cleansed.

The word by which we're washed is involved in baptism into His death, where our old men are crucified. Yes, our BEHAVIOUR needs to gradually improve which comes by maturity, but we're as righteous as Jesus as soon as we're saved, since it's not by our works. We just see that manifest through our maturity. Many people confuse the behavioural change that progressively takes place with the note in Eph 5. But it's not the case.

[Esaias]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The church is presented to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle but holy and without blemish. The church is sanctified (made holy) and cleansed (made without blemish, no spot or wrinkle) by the washing of water by the word. This is a reference in part to baptism into Christ. By coming into Christ, through baptism, the 'woman' becomes the bride of Christ, is washed, cleansed, sanctified, purified.

There is nothing here about a 'process of purification of the church so when Jesus comes the church will have finally got it's act together and is presentable'.

If anything, it says that the only ones who will inherit glory are those who are sanctified and cleansed from filthiness. Those who aren't, who are still spotted and filthy, simply aren't part of that cleansed, spotless, unwrinkled bride of Christ. See the first two thirds of Ephesians 5.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The church is presented to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle but holy and without blemish. The church is sanctified (made holy) and cleansed (made without blemish, no spot or wrinkle) by the washing of water by the word. This is a reference in part to baptism into Christ. By coming into Christ, through baptism, the 'woman' becomes the bride of Christ, is washed, cleansed, sanctified, purified.

There is nothing here about a 'process of purification of the church so when Jesus comes the church will have finally got it's act together and is presentable'.

If anything, it says that the only ones who will inherit glory are those who are sanctified and cleansed from filthiness. Those who aren't, who are still spotted and filthy, simply aren't part of that cleansed, spotless, unwrinkled bride of Christ. See the first two thirds of Ephesians 5.

Amen. He died to present a church to himself as pure through that death.

[shazeep]

well, i note that your borders are shrinking, and many other indicators that your interpretation has some big holes. But wadr i would just point out that

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

might (does) have a different meaning (possibly "also") than

"This is a reference in part to baptism into Christ. By coming into Christ, through baptism, the 'woman' becomes the bride of Christ, is washed, cleansed, sanctified, purified."


at least, different than our current understanding of "baptism," that being physical immersion in water. That is in fact the very "works" that will not save you.