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  #11  
Old 01-03-2016, 02:31 PM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
No congregational singing, but had some good barbecues as part of every service, too.
Lamb chops every service. ...
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  #12  
Old 01-03-2016, 02:37 PM
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TJJJ TJJJ is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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And they performed well, I'm sure. There is a time in every service for special singing. But there must also be a time when the pros tone it down to let the Bride sing to the Bridegroom. Corporate, congregational worship died and a weekly "praise concert" took its place. Everybody wants a mini version of Hillsong singers in their church.
I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.
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  #13  
Old 01-03-2016, 03:13 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Agreed.

When you read the full verse, and really the whole chapter, it is not at all what was implied.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26

Paul is chastising the church in Corinth, not praising it.
I will now refute this.

First of all, the context is chapters 12-14. In chapter 12 Paul teaches that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each member for the benefit of the whole assembly.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Then follows a non-exhaustive listing of several types of Spirit manifestation, including prophesying, tongues, interpretation, healing, faith, miracles, words of wisdom and/or knowledge, etc.

From this we see that in the assembly the Spirit manifests Himself through the individual members, that EVERY member is expected to be used by the Spirit in a supernatural way to edify the entire congregation.

Vss 14-27 establish that there is a diversity of manifestations, that is, different people are used by the Spirit in different ways, but this is because the Body is a collection of distinct members, not all one body part but many varied body parts each having a unique function in the Body. Thus one should not despise another because they do not have the same manifestation of the Spirit, nor should one be jealous of another (for the same reason).

Vss 28-31 establish again that there is a diversity of operations of the Spirit (manifestations of the Spirit), including another listing of gifts different somewhat from the first (thus showing each list is not exhaustive). It further reiterates that all members of the assembly do not manifest the same gift, and that the church is to desire the manifestation of the Spirit, and is to covet or greatly desire the 'best gifts', that is, the ones most suited to corporate edification (ie prophesying, speaking as the Spirit gives utterance in the language of the hearers, so as to be easily understood). And vs 31 gives a segue to chapter 13 where Paul shows a 'better way'.

Chapter 13 is all about the necessity of love. Spiritual gifts and manifestations are essentially of no real value unless they are accompanied with a genuine love for one another, because love is greater than spiritual manifestations.

This then brings us to chapter 14.

The first part of the chapter establishes that following love, and desiring spiritual gifts/manifestations (which, remember, are given to EACH member for the edification of the whole assembly) is the proper way to go. But specifically that prophesying is superior (of more practical use) than speaking in an unknown tongue, because with prophesying the hearers can understand and be edified, whereas with tongues (apart from interpretation) the hearers have no idea what is being said and are not actually edified.

Verses 20-25 establish the immediate context of the disputed passage. He again points out and proves the superiority of prophesying over uninterpreted tongues, but notice something: His discussion assumes that EACH MEMBER will be manifesting the Spirit, operating in the gifts of the Holy Ghost. He points out how if everybody speaks in tongues with no interpretation, this is unfruitful and counterproductive. On the other hand, he emphatically states if EVERYONE prophesies, this is eminently suited to glorifying God, convicting sinners, and demonstrating or proving that God is truly in the assembly.

He then says the following:

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

He states when the church comes together, each one has something they contribute. He then says 'let all things be done unto edifying'. He previously expounded and taught that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EACH MEMBER ('every one of you') for the edification and profiting of the whole assembly. Verse 26 is clearly a restatement of the same theme he has been working on for two and a half chapters.

He then gives some apostolic guidelines on how to manage 'every one of you' bringing something to the meeting, that is to say, people are to take turns (not be doing stuff all at once) and are to be willing to give place to each other's gift, as follows:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Notice verse 31, he again reiterates the full participatory nature of a genuine Holy Ghost-filled apostolic meeting. And he identifies the proper order ('one by one'), for the edifying or learning and comforting of everybody.

To suggest that Paul was saying the Corinthians were out of order BECAUSE everybody brought something to the meeting, because everybody was manifesting the Spirit or operating in a gift of the Spirit, is to flatly contradict what he said repeatedly throughout chapter 12, chapter 13, and chapter 14. What was being corrected was NOT the fact that the Spirit was manifesting through each member of the assembly, but the fact that some were denigrating other's gifts, thinking they themselves were more important, and that there was a jumbled confusion of everybody speaking in tongues all at once with no interpretation.

By the way, most 'pentecostal' churches that practice what you suggest is the correct understanding, that is to say, most 'pentecostal' churches that do not allow 'each of you' to operate in the manifestation of the Spirit, but instead have more important people (song leaders, preachers, etc) do all the 'important spiritual stuff', are also the churches that either have NO manifestation of the Spirit at all, OR else they tend to have these episodes in most of their services where everybody speaks in tongues all at once, and there is no interpretation. 'Let's all pray in the Spirit right now', or else during an altar call or something the whole church is speaking in tongues and there is no interpretation.

In other words, those who support your interpretation tend, in my experience, to violate the very things Paul commanded, and tend to do the very things he said not to do. I am not saying you or your assembly does that, it is just an observation I have made from attending numerous meetings at different churches over the years. It can also be seen in bright glorious display all over YouTube.
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Last edited by Esaias; 01-03-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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  #14  
Old 01-03-2016, 03:17 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.
A similar thing actually happened in the synagogue. Synagogue worship used to involve primarily congregational singing (chanting) of hymns and psalms. Then arose the professional 'cantor', the guy who could chant or sing the psalms or the text of Scripture in an awesome, professional way. The cantors gradually took on more and more until congregational singing pretty much disappeared from the synagogue. The elders had to get together and make some rules to limit the cantors. The cantors were developing more and more complicated, melismatic chants that only trained professional cantors could sing.

Same thing actually happened in the catholic churches. The rise of choristers and 'song deacons' led to more and more highly elaborate singing, until the congregation itself simply could not participate anymore.

We're just repeating history.
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  #15  
Old 01-03-2016, 03:24 PM
n david n david is offline
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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.
It's not just a regression in the worship, but in the church as a whole. Church period has become more professional, not only worship.

From the slick weekly message "series," complete with intro videos and backgrounds to kids ministry, teen ministry, etc.
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  #16  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:06 PM
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TJJJ TJJJ is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

When God first called the Children of Israel out of Egypt we see that His desire was for them to be a nation of Priests.

They rejected that at Sinaia so God then took the 13th tribe and made them the priests.

But man was not happy and asked for a King. God gave them what they asked for but it was not his first choice.

The Worship in the beginning was between man and God. But man is never happy and desires the easiest way out.

We don't see praisers until David makes them, oh and they were the sons of Korah.

By the time of Jesus' incarnation the Temple mode was in full swing, professionalism was the order of the day, but the Most Holy Place was empty.

Sound a lot like churches today.
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  #17  
Old 01-03-2016, 05:58 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

The problem with praise leaders is critical people in the pews...
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  #18  
Old 01-03-2016, 06:01 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

The church is better than it's ever been you bunch of pessimists.
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #19  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:11 PM
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Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is offline
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Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

When I was a deacon, the praise team leader was the number one complaint that came my way. Since the praise team leader was the pastors daughter, there was no resolution to the problem.
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  #20  
Old 01-03-2016, 07:28 PM
n david n david is offline
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The church is better than it's ever been you bunch of pessimists.
Depends on how you define "better."
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