Everybody must have a pastor?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I cannot disagree more. We MUST have a man over us as a covering. Even Moses had groups allotted under him to take care of people for counsel.

Exo 18:21-22 KJV Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: (22) And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

Where does the Bible say "we must have a man over us as a covering"?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul started out with a lack of wisdom and stirred up undue persecution. The apostles talked to him and sent him away for a while to Tarsus. Paul submitted and departed.

Act 9:29-31 KJV And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. (30) Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. (31) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Study it out. After they sent him away, the comfort of the Holy Ghost hit the place. He actually had to step aside for a while.

Where does it say Paul started out lacking in wisdom?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The scriptures teach submission to each other as Peter did to Paul and Paul did to Peter. Moses standing as Christ had men organized beneath him over others.

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you
be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility..."

Is there another Moses TODAY [besides Jesus], or perhaps I have missed
something? Yes, the offices in the Ministry should submit one to another,
for none is greater than the other: but all complement one another!

The one-man rule is contrary to scripture.

[good samaritan]

The Bible says nowhere that a man needs another man as a covering. A woman on the other hand covers her head to symbolize the authority over head which is the man. A lady is submissive to her husband, but the man is to protect her and care for her (lead his family). The Lord is the leader protector of the man (and the woman as well). Leadership is essential, but submission shouldn't be demanded. As a man, to feel that I need another man as a covering of protection over me is against my masculinity and also God's word. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The idea that a minister is going to stand in between us and God takes us back to the law of Moses.

A person is wise to be submitted to the God called ministries that is in the Church when they are operating under the direction of God. I have seen pastors before idolized to a degree that people were made to feel like the pastor should not mow his own yard and people should be eager to jump in and serve him. That is not what I see in the scriptures at all. Of course we should honor those who labor in the work of God, but not above that is written.

Submission is a choice and there are natural checks and balances that restrict submission. If someone is a manipulator then many people will read through that an avoid them. If people sense that we are being led of the Lord and we are not self motivated, submission occurs natural and freewill (except for those cases of people who won't submit to anything but self). Submission should also occur in every direction. Not just in one direction upward as in some hierarchy of earthly power.

The apostles and church leaders where found submitting more than anyone. How many days and nights do you suppose the apostles neglected their own wants in order to help others to come to the Lord. The question on this thread is asked in a dogmatic way (as to tear down pastoral leadership as we know it today). The scriptures say that God gave some pastors and so it is obvious that it is a necessary part of the church. Why wouldn't everyone want a pastor in their life? I think the problem is the role of a pastor that is misunderstood with so many. I think the question should not be should everyone have a pastor, but instead what is the biblical role of a pastor.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Where is the circular logic here?

I think you are just wanting to stir the pot, lol...

There are plenty of scriptures to support plural leadership, as noted above.

By all means, post the scriptures that support a one man pastor leadership.

The Bible is not specific regarding a lot of aspects of church government. I don't think the bible advocates or prohibits plural equal leadership. However I do believe that common sense and human nature precludes it from being successful the vast majority of the time.

Nature does not have many if any two headed animals. I believe in checks and balances and no one person should have unchecked power and no accountability. However at the end of the day I believe that leadership in any endeavor only works with one person being the primary leader. We don't hve Co Presidents of the United States nor do countries with a parlimentarian form of government have Co Prime Ministers. There is a reason for that. The reason is that it will not work. Are there exceptions? Of cousre just as there is with most things.

If you want to dabble in co equal plural leadership I say go for it. Hope it works for you. Not for me though and certainly not something the bible calls for.

[good samaritan]

I believe what we call a pastor is correctly a bishop although the calling of pastor is specific to that role. A person can have a pastoral calling without being in the office of bishop, but a bishop can never be without a pastoral calling. IMO. I think there are different pastors (youth leaders, outreach directors, etc..) in churches but only one bishop to a particular assembly (I think our terminology is just off). Otherwise, it seems it would be counterproductive. I agree with you CC.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by CC1

The Bible is not specific regarding a lot of aspects of church government. I don't think the bible advocates or prohibits plural equal leadership. However I do believe that common sense and human nature precludes it from being successful the vast majority of the time.

Nature does not have many if any two headed animals. I believe in checks and balances and no one person should have unchecked power and no accountability. However at the end of the day I believe that leadership in any endeavor only works with one person being the primary leader. We don't hve Co Presidents of the United States nor do countries with a parlimentarian form of government have Co Prime Ministers. There is a reason for that. The reason is that it will not work. Are there exceptions? Of cousre just as there is with most things.

If you want to dabble in co equal plural leadership I say go for it. Hope it works for you. Not for me though and certainly not something the bible calls for.

What exactly is being 'led' that REQUIRES 'one man in charge besides Jesus'?

I mean, aren't elders supposed to be teaching the saints, preaching the gospel? Why would that require 'one man in addition to Jesus'?

Or do you mean that a business running itself as a 'non profit religious organisation' needs one man in charge (besides Jesus) otherwise there might be gridlock and the money get's locked up and somebody ain't gettin' paid?

[votivesoul]

Since "pastor" is merely one of five different grace gifts Christ has given to the church, it stands to reason "pastor" is just as important (but not more so) as the other four in fulfilling the purpose for why they were given by the Lord in the first place:

Perfect the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ (notice NO commas!).

Be this as it may, would we ever ask the following:

- Does everybody need an apostle?
- Does everybody need a prophet?
- Does everybody need an evangelist?
- Does everybody need a teacher?

If the answer is "no" to any of the four questions above, it's automatically precluded that the answer is the same "no" for the question: does everybody need a pastor?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Since "pastor" is merely one of five different grace gifts Christ has given to the church, it stands to reason "pastor" is just as important (but not more so) as the other four in fulfilling the purpose for why they were given by the Lord in the first place:

Perfect the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ (notice NO commas!).

Be this as it may, would we ever ask the following:

- Does everybody need an apostle?
- Does everybody need a prophet?
- Does everybody need an evangelist?
- Does everybody need a teacher?

If the answer is "no" to any of the four questions above, it's automatically precluded that the answer is the same "no" for the question: does everybody need a pastor?

And yet, I think it wise to say that the CHURCH needs pastors, as much as the other gifts. But are pastors needed at the individual level? Yes, for a time, they are. Neophytes need someone--actually several "someones"--to care for them, be an example in faith and charity, and feed them the "sincere milk of the Word", especially when coming out of the world. But as they mature and transition into stability, there needs to be a transferrence in regards to who now pastors that saint. At some point, when maturity is achieved, an indvidual saint shouldn't need someone to care for them, be an example in faith and charity, and feed them. Jesus should take over that role completely.

I mean, if after 10-15 years in the faith, a saint still needs someone else to care for their soul, be the example they themselves should now be for others, and/or needs someone else to feed them, instead of them feeding themselves and others, then something is wrong.

If this was a purely non-spiritual example, we'd say such a "teenager" was disabled. So why have a bunch of disabled saints who can't care for themselves, be an example themselves, and a feed themselves?

[votivesoul]

From my own life:

YHWH is my shepherd, and I shall not want. He has appointed His Son to be the chief shepherd over all that I am and do. I shepherd my wife and children.

That's it. I don't have a "pastor". I have friends and trusted colleagues with whom I talk and share, fellowship and worship. But none of us tries to "pastor" any of us.